the eclipse of October 30, 1207 BC as reported in Joshua - new thoughts on

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Oct 30 2017 5:45 AM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bridaineparnell/2017/10/30/oldest-solar-eclipse-ever-recorded-tells-us-when-ramesses-the-great-ruled-egypt/#1b7b99e45a66 

The Biblical text comes from the Old Testament Book of Joshua and has puzzled scholars for centuries. After Joshua led the people of Israel into Canaan (an area of the ancient Near East that covered modern-day Israel and Palestine), he prayed: “Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon. And the Sun stood still, and the Moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies.”

“But going back to the original Hebrew text, we determined that an alternative meaning could be that the sun and moon just stopped doing what they normally do: they stopped shining. In this context, the Hebrew words could be referring to a solar eclipse, when the moon passes between the earth and the sun, and the sun appears to stop shining. This interpretation is supported by the fact that the Hebrew word translated ‘stand still’ has the same root as a Babylonian word used in ancient astronomical texts to describe eclipses.”

Comments Please: 

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 30 2017 6:40 AM

I'm surprised Forbes doesn't spell-check, if indeed Forbes.

But the authors have a series of circular if's, that all hinge on the old question of Menerpta (sp). They also don't account for Babylonian eclypse records/interest, as regards when Joshua was written.  I'm currently reading the divination book (Logos.com) that notes the peculiar dating of the vocabulary to the neo-Babylonian.

But it is interesting. A lot of nay-sayers use that text to imagine everything falling off the earth. Another interpretation is two gods were held in abeyance.


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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 30 2017 7:30 AM

I've read that that in that situation the phrase means that the sun did not set before the full moon rising.

It means that there was no dark period between the sunset and the moonrise. The dark period could have given the enemy some advantage or an opportunity to flee?

From the observer's point of view the sun was standing (being slow, waiting).

The atmospheric refraction may also affect the situation, making the moon and sun appear higher than than reality, and then the lack of dark period was something unexpected.?

The sun was in the west, the moon in the east, the valley being in the east-west direction. May look good but no solar eclipse in that situation.

But that is only one explanation among many Cool

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

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Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 30 2017 11:07 AM

Or, Occam's razor applies, and the simplest answer is the correct one- God supernaturally stopped the orbits.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 30 2017 11:27 AM

Michael S.:

Or, Occam's razor applies, and the simplest answer is the correct one- God supernaturally stopped the orbits.

Occam’s certainly works for dogma.  But the Joshua text itself is pretty loosey-goosey, and never quite comfortable with the Judges text, or the LXX.


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Alan Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 30 2017 3:14 PM

If people are more interested in the actual paper the article mentions: https://academic.oup.com/astrogeo/article/58/5/5.39/4159289/Solar-eclipse-of-1207-BC-helps-to-date

Posts 234
Charles | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 30 2017 6:05 PM

Michael S.:

Or, Occam's razor applies, and the simplest answer is the correct one- God supernaturally stopped the orbits.

Right answer.  Why wouldn't we think that the God who created the universe couldn't stop the Earth's rotation so His servant Joshua could score a victory for His people?

In Christ,

Charles

2017 27" iMac 5K, Mojave, 10.5" iPad Pro, iPhone 7+, iPhone 8, iOS 12.0, Catalina beta, iPadOS Beta  

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Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 30 2017 11:15 PM

Charles:

Michael S.:

Or, Occam's razor applies, and the simplest answer is the correct one- God supernaturally stopped the orbits.

Right answer.  Why wouldn't we think that the God who created the universe couldn't stop the Earth's rotation so His servant Joshua could score a victory for His people?

In Christ,

Charles

Amen.  Sometimes believers are over anxious to find a 'natural' answer' when God's word is very clear. To speculate on alternatives is fair enough if you are trying to list different perspectives or what people may have believed about it over the centuries. Yet the bottom line is that Almighty God, our Creator exercised His power and stopped the sun as He tells us in His Word. Keep well Paul  

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 31 2017 5:36 AM

Paul:

Amen.  Sometimes believers are over anxious to find a 'natural' answer' when God's word is very clear. To speculate on alternatives is fair enough if you are trying to list different perspectives or what people may have believed about it over the centuries. Yet the bottom line is that Almighty God, our Creator exercised His power and stopped the sun as He tells us in His Word. Keep well Paul  

Yes, God has the power and could have stopped the sun and the moon.  BUT what exactly did they see in 1207 BC?  Is there any Hebrew text that refers to an eclipse? [[And exactly what words does that reference use]]  

When God stopped the sun and the moon did anyone other than Joshua's people notice?  And where is that recorded?  When Joshua's people had [what] 24 hours of daylight,  who had 24 hours of night time?  

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Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 31 2017 6:36 AM

David Ames:

Paul:

Amen.  Sometimes believers are over anxious to find a 'natural' answer' when God's word is very clear. To speculate on alternatives is fair enough if you are trying to list different perspectives or what people may have believed about it over the centuries. Yet the bottom line is that Almighty God, our Creator exercised His power and stopped the sun as He tells us in His Word. Keep well Paul  

Yes, God has the power and could have stopped the sun and the moon.  BUT what exactly did they see in 1207 BC?  Is there any Hebrew text that refers to an eclipse? [[And exactly what words does that reference use]]  

When God stopped the sun and the moon did anyone other than Joshua's people notice?  And where is that recorded?  When Joshua's people had [what] 24 hours of daylight,  who had 24 hours of night time?  

Its great to explore ideas and perspectives. and zeal in doing that is to be commended. But, I wonder whether sometimes we are ready to believe our speculations as they have become our authority rather than the Word itself?  If we had a record elsewhere of an eclipse from that time - would that make it true or would the fact that God's Word says that the sun stood still be sufficient?  In other words why would a non-biblical record elsewhere really be necessary to explain what God has said? Are we only prepared to believe God's Word when it is backed by evidence from somewhere else? I write this with the greatest of respect. Keep well Paul  

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 31 2017 6:52 AM

Paul, dogma works great on Sunday mornings. But the remainder of the week, you need a little more. That's why Jesus, Paul, and the early Christian leaders spent so much time regarding questioned apologetics ... with believers, no less. Quite a number of jews even re-wrote the text, due to the obvious issues.

Plus, on Sunday mornings, in Bible class, someone is sure to ask. At least at our church. 


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Randall Cue | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 31 2017 9:32 AM

Denise:

Paul, dogma works great on Sunday mornings. But the remainder of the week, you need a little more. That's why Jesus, Paul, and the early Christian leaders spent so much time regarding questioned apologetics ... with believers, no less. Quite a number of jews even re-wrote the text, due to the obvious issues.

Plus, on Sunday mornings, in Bible class, someone is sure to ask. At least at our church. 

Wow!

Soli Deo Gloria

Randy

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Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 31 2017 11:33 AM

Denise:

Paul, dogma works great on Sunday mornings. But the remainder of the week, you need a little more. 

As I think about this being Reformation day, and how the trustworthiness of the Word of God came back to the forefront 500 years ago, I somewhat gasp at this statement.  I think I know what you are saying, but that may speak more to our collective "religiosity" than to a genuine Biblical faith.  There should be not difference in what we say on Sunday and what we say the rest of the week.  Truth is truth- irrespective of the day, or the setting.  Now I agree that there is a time and place for more emphasis on apologetics, and if you cite specific examples of tensions between different texts, I can see the further investigation (not that I am opposed to it irregardless), but the danger comes if there are no extra-biblical witnesses of some astronomical event, what does that do to your faith?  Do you slip into neo-orthodox position (assuming you are orthodox to begin with)?  Or do you abandon the faith and chalk up the Scriptures to myth and fables?  

Thankful for Sola Scriptura.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 31 2017 12:28 PM

Michael, no need to gasp. If you read the writings carefully, your week should be filled with introducing OTHERS to the jouous news. And no doubt they'll be aware of stopping earths, or a Biblical failure in hydrogen fusion for a day. Being familiar with possible explanations is not a bad idea. Spouting dogma usually is less effective.

Keep in mind the article dealt with eclipses ... I didn't agree with the article.


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Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 31 2017 4:31 PM

Denise:

Spouting dogma usually is less effective.

I'm thankful for the thousands of books in my Logos library and those that stack my shelves and the myriad of views I see expressed in them. Its also a wonderful privilege to have time to explore those different perspectives and learn from them. But when I open a Bible, I have before me God's revelation to mankind and that makes me pause. Insisting on His Word rather than my own or that of a talented theologian, linguist etc is not "spouting dogma" but recognizing that the Word itself and the power accompanying it can achieve something in myself or someone else that I cannot.

Yet, there is also some truth in what you say because we simply cannot impose God's Word on anyone if they refuse to accept it. Yesterday I was reading about the Flood and Noah's Ark and wondering when was the last time I heard a sermon on it - many years at least. Perhaps those truths too have sunk beneath the waves of our (and my) unbelieving philosophical speculations? I'm probably over simplifying here and I apologize for that.  Have a much blessed day.   Keep well Paul       

    

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