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This post has 389 Replies | 32 Followers

Posts 2
C Stutzman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 1:57 PM

I really do not know what to think.

The above post explains why there are doing what they are doing. 

We have Faithlife selling a product that is better than , in my personal opinion, the competition.

So many people complaining and some even saying we, us, or even all. I for one am glad Faithlife is there and giving us such a product.

They are a business. As a business they have contracts with other companies. The last time I checked the prices on everything is going up. Fuel was a bit cheaper for awhile. My groceries were not. Rent was not, etc. So I am going to have to assume that the prices of their contracts are going up. As with any other company the price the customer pays reflects in what the company has to pay. 

They not only have contracts but all of those people to code the software. If they just offered what McDonalds pays I doubt we would have the software we have today. Those people deserve to be paid more than minimum wage.

Straight up if you cannot or don't want to be able to afford their software, stop complaining and/or threatening to go elsewhere. Just go elsewhere. Faithlife charges what they see fit. There are other options out there.

I have been following the posts and I have to say that I have been staying away from posting. All the negative comments just is not right. All the threats just are not right. I really feel sorry for those that have a question because frankly we are not Christians in the sense that we are supposed to be peacemakers. There is very little peace here in the message boards. I will never post a question on these boards, because there is a real good chance that the information will either be not complete, or it will be answered in a negative fashion.

I am like everyone else. I would like to get whatever product as cheap as possible. I am on disability, so I have to, many times, buy a product that is less expensive.  I have to cut costs where I can. I will never be able to afford even what I would like to have, let alone all of it. I will purchase what I am able to afford. I thank God that he saw fit that a company like Faithlife should exist. 

Thank you Mr. Pritchett for all that you have done for us.

Thank you to all the employees of Faithlife as you all have made Studying the Bible not only much easier but much faster. 

Posts 1932
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 2:11 PM

David Mullens:
I believe Bob said one of the challenges with LN was the feature upgrades. I wonder what the reaction would be if they would have simply removed that part of LN and charged the same amount.

I think the reaction from what has been posted is that it would have been fine.  I am another one who forgot that LN included upgrades every 6 months.  It was also with me, not an important issue.

What made LN important to me:

1. I could support the development on the software for a price not too high

2. For that support, I would receive upgrades as the build the program towards L8 so when L8 comes out, there are few surprises for me

3. For that support, I would not have as big of a sticker shock when L8 comes out.  I would be able to upgrade to L8 cheaper because I had paid a bit over time.

Others could have different reasons for liking LN.  There were my reasons.

FLC has too many features for me to use.  I can do without all of them.  And I am fine with waiting for new features when L8 comes or L9 comes.

Posts 1022
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 2:15 PM

You cannot assume people's tones over reading text on a forum.

Many people are concerned and this whole announcement is abrupt. People have invested a lot of money into Logos so that they even exist today. Yes, they make great bible software but Logos Now was advertised as a way for people to have features by renting and now the increase to keep features is going up a $140 a year which is an extreme increase in pricing. Not only that what is offered in the $240 a year is a lot of what people don't want and will have to pay for to continue on something similar. Yes, they have tried to compensate but it is a very dramatic increase in price. 

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/kpang808

Posts 781
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 2:51 PM

C Stutzman:
I will never post a question on these boards, because there is a real good chance that the information will either be not complete, or it will be answered in a negative fashion.

Please do not hesitate to post, say, a how-do-I-do-this question.  U will get polite, helpful responses. Reasking will promote the same helpful reply......I ask some silly questions + do get great responses.

Wait a week.  Go back to the forums.  Look at the how-to questions.      

Posts 26129
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 3:07 PM

Mark:
I am another one who forgot that LN included upgrades every 6 months.  It was also with me, not an important issue.

Typo: make that 6 weeks. Remember that this had two other effects, both positive.

  1. Rather than creating features and then putting them on the shelf until the next major release (up to 2 years), this allowed Logos to avoid creating bugs in the code while working on newer features. This in turn minimizes the effort for managing code and beta testing for the next major release.
  2. The discipline of the 6 week cycle cycle has resulted in a marked decrease in bugs. Yes, there are a few and, yes, there is still a backlog of long-standing bugs but all-in-all we are getting much more polished releases.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1932
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 3:20 PM

MJ. Smith:
Typo: make that 6 weeks.

Thanks MJ for the correction

Posts 33
Josh Parsley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 4:04 PM

Bob, 

Thanks for being open and discussing the reasons behind all this.  

I subscribed to Logos Now, not for the latest features every 6 weeks but just to have all the features that were available in Logos 7 since I didn't upgrade.  It was the only financial plausible way I had at the time to have access to some of the latest features.  

At first I was frustrated when I seen the email and came here to the forums to see what was going on.  Now after reading your explanation, I feel better about it and think what you're doing makes sense, although as a customer I might not like every aspect of it.  

Thanks.

Posts 85
William Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 8:10 PM

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your full disclosure and forthrightness. That is much further and honest than most businesses would care to go with their customer base. I'm sure you're in a difficult place and this stings just as much for you as it does for your customers. Change is difficult.

I would have to say that it's quite unfortunate that not enough customers were able to signup for LN. Both for the customer base and FL.

In my opinion FL is going down the road they need to go. I have not used and do not care to use the web based app at this point. However, I can see that in order to remain relevant and affordable to a (potentially) larger user base (revenue stream) FL has to provide a more attractive pricing model to a newer generation of believers and students of the word. That is your future and if you fail to execute the transition the business will not survive. While I may not like it personally I applaud you and FL for not shying away from attempting to make it happen.

I'm in the group who have made a significant investment in resources but have not added significantly to that investment in the past 2 years. I, like others, appreciated the LN subscription as it made sense. A couple of reasons for not purchasing more resources. 1) I don't need a significant number of new resources at this time, and 2) My primary device is an 8 inch Windows tablet and with a large library I cannot realistically add many more resources and have everything still run on the tablet due to space constraints.

I can understand those who are upset and unable to afford keeping up with feature set upgrades in new releases. I'm not in the financially struggling category although many of the Logos users in my circle of friends are in that category so I really understand their frustrations over what appears to be unnecessary features and services.

I think what I hear you saying Bob is that the FL Connect pricing point of ~$20/mo is what would work for customers like myself and FL to be in a win/win situation with feature set upgrades paying for software development costs. I just checked on my price to do a feature set upgrade on my Ultimate Collection and it would be around $2,500. Even if major releases of the software occurred every 3 years, my math shows that $720 is less than $2,500. Even though I don't like paying an extra $11/mo it is still a bargain in comparison to purchasing the feature set upgrade. And, for myself, I can actually afford to pay it.

There are two things that, in my opinion, would benefit everyone going forward. (I'm speaking of the core bible study product, not the extras such as FL TV. I have never used the extras so I don't have an opinion of them)

1) For those who can afford it, and are in a situation similar to mine, let's get behind this change and signup for it. If FL can succeed in getting the software into the hands of a new generation, using whatever (subscription, rental...) model, we all benefit. The more we use and support it the more can be invested in it. For those of us who are already LN users we are paid for already on FL Connect for the next 14 months, I believe, plus Bob sent us all credits to help in purchasing feature upgrades.

2) I would love to see some kind of special pricing for those users who have been around for a while (nice way of saying older like me) and have made a significant investment in resources over the years. That way they can keep up with new features in an affordable way. Some of these believers are those who could benefit the most and provide the most benefit and blessing to those they minister to.

I know the second item would be the most difficult to implement. There would need to be a way of determining who qualifies and not everyone would be happy in the end but the other side is that those who know the software best and could use new features and upgrades the most are stuck on the outside looking in because they can no longer afford it.

If there is a way to do it I will return the credit sent to me so someone more in need could use it to purchase a feature upgrade. Others probably have some better thoughts about how to help FL help all of us make it through this transition so that we all benefit. I do believe it would be very helpful, for those of us who are able, to signup for FL Connect and fully support FL as they work through this with us. The transition is definitely painful for many but in my opinion absolutely necessary for all of us to come out on the right side of things.

Thank you for listening,

William

Posts 22
Paul Lehr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 8:57 PM

William Walker:
I think what I hear you saying Bob is that the FL Connect pricing point of ~$20/mo is what would work for customers like myself and FL to be in a win/win situation with feature set upgrades paying for software development costs. I just checked on my price to do a feature set upgrade on my Ultimate Collection and it would be around $2,500. Even if major releases of the software occurred every 3 years, my math shows that $720 is less than $2,500. Even though I don't like paying an extra $11/mo it is still a bargain in comparison to purchasing the feature set upgrade. And, for myself, I can actually afford to pay it.

I am wondering how you came up with a Feature set upgrade price of $2500. It looks like the List Price for the Starter Feature Set is $199, the Full Feature set is $599, and the Extended Feature Set is $799 when I look it up after logging off my userid to avoid it showing my dynamic pricing which is substantially less.

I was using this page  https://www.logos.com/compare/feature-sets to look up the feature sets.

I thought that the feature set list prices were independent of the collection that you have. I could be wrong...  Paul

Posts 85
William Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 9:42 PM

Hi Paul,

I guess I was confused and used the price for upgrading the Collectors Edition base package to v7. The $2,500 is the dynamic price for that upgrade. My bad. Thanks for pointing that out.

As far as the Extended Feature Set I'm seeing $879 instead and on sale for $679. I don't see the $799. Now we are closer to $740 for 3 years.

Maybe someone from FL can comment on and clarify on pricing for the extended feature set.

Seems closer to a wash depending on how one values the extras and on the actual cadence of new releases. It could still be a bargain without the extras if the release cadence is closer to 2 years.

Although we don't know the actual launch date for Logos 8 it's been less than 2 years since Logos 7 launched. The cadence between Logos 6 and 7 was slightly less than 2 years.

Based on release cadence of closer to 2 years I would still hold my position that FL Connect is a bargain for those who can afford to update their feature sets and want to pay less than purchasing to own. Although you could also argue that since the difference is less maybe it's better to purchase to own. I believe though we would be helping FL more by subscribing since they would have a somewhat more predictable revenue stream vs. not knowing for sure what percentage of installed base will purchase the upgrade with each new release until it comes out.

Thanks again,

William

Posts 242
danwdoo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 10:53 PM

Mark:

David Mullens:
I believe Bob said one of the challenges with LN was the feature upgrades. I wonder what the reaction would be if they would have simply removed that part of LN and charged the same amount.

I think the reaction from what has been posted is that it would have been fine.  I am another one who forgot that LN included upgrades every 6 months.  It was also with me, not an important issue.

Don't forget if you go back and read Bob's post, you will see that while the new features were a problem, they weren't the main problem. The economics of Logos Now just didn't work (only a tiny fraction of the needed number of customers subscribed). Based on that, this isn't a viable option going forward at anywhere near the same cost.

Posts 13312
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 7:31 AM

It's important for everyone to realise that once you have a full feature set, upgrading to the next one will probably cost less than a Logos Now subscription. I had the Logos 6 Feature Set (or whatever it was called then), and buying the Logos 7 Extended Feature Set only cost me $70.21 on a 50% off Black Friday deal.

As Logos upgrades tend to happen every two years, that's a lot cheaper than the $200 I'd have paid for Logos Now over that same time.

I obviously have no idea how much I'll have to pay for the Logos 8 feature set, but I'd be surprised if I have to pay more than $200.

Posts 454
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 8:25 AM

I have found great comfort today Mark. Thank you muchly! 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 28
Dave Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 8:47 AM

I have a question that I looked to see if someone else has posted yet but I couldn't find anything.  I am a current Logos Now subscriber that was automatically mapped to the Connect Starter subscription.  After looking the Starter subscription over I have no real interest in it, however I might I have an interest in the Connect Essentials subscription.  My question has to do with how Faithlife addresses the overlapping of a Logos Now subscription with an Essentials subscription.  My current Logos Now subscription doesn't expire until May and in the interim if I subscribe to Essentials it feels like I would be paying twice for the same benefits since Logos Now is essentially a subset of Essentials.  Has Faithlife addressed this scenario?

Posts 17877
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 9:17 AM

Dave Palmer:
My current Logos Now subscription doesn't expire until May and in the interim if I subscribe to Essentials it feels like I would be paying twice for the same benefits since Logos Now is essentially a subset of Essentials.  Has Faithlife addressed this scenario?

Please read thread => Important Information about Faithlife Connect and Logos Now

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 2298
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 9:57 AM

Bob Pritchett:

Logos Now was an awesome deal, and we tried hard to get everyone to see that. But while you did, not enough did.

Logos Now maxed out somewhere near 1.8% of our annual revenue. That doesn't come close to making a dent in the cost of delivering it, let alone driving new product development and support.

What is your projection for annual revenue for FLC? From the discussion in this thread, I would expect a fraction adoption rate for FLC. Are you prepared to absorb this loss of revenue? Are you planning other shifts of services in the future that you would like to disclose? Since revenue from resources makes up the lion's share of your revenue base are you planning to further inflate prices here, risking an exodus to other software providers? 

I like many forum participants have a large library and I can easily forego further purchases if I don't see value. As has been glibly stated elsewhere at the end of the day the consumer will make decisions based on self-interest, I hope your projections assume these scenarios. 

Edit:It's interesting to me that such a small percentage of consumers can require a need for such a dramatic shift in services.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 91
David Mullens | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 12:08 PM

Beloved:

Bob Pritchett:

Logos Now was an awesome deal, and we tried hard to get everyone to see that. But while you did, not enough did.

Logos Now maxed out somewhere near 1.8% of our annual revenue. That doesn't come close to making a dent in the cost of delivering it, let alone driving new product development and support.

What is your projection for annual revenue for FLC? From the discussion in this thread, I would expect a fraction adoption rate for FLC. Are you prepared to absorb this loss of revenue? Are you planning other shifts of services in the future that you would like to disclose? Since revenue from resources makes up the lion's share of your revenue base are you planning to further inflate prices here, risking an exodus to other software providers? 

My take was that there are two different client bases. One, those of us who have a large library have invested a lot of money for resources. Second, new customers that aren't able to spend a lot of money to get started. Starter is close to $300. Bronze over $600. Silver $1000. Now they can get resources for $20 month. I'm not sure what package this equates to, but it seems more manageable. 

So, the adoption rate for us would be small. For new customers? It would probably be higher.

If I were a new customer I wouldn't be able to afford much of Logos. However, as a new customer, _I_ would want much different resources. The commentaries set, even on the "standard" version wouldn't be sufficient. I'm not sure FaithLife Connect is even meant for me. It is meant for new customers, but not for folks who need specific resources.

The good news is, I don't have to have a FaithLife connect at all. I can use the coupon I'm getting, purchase the feature options, and continue using my thousands of resources, commentaries that I rely upon, etc., etc.

So, instead of paying $200/yr, I'll use the coupon code and pay $0. I'm sure I'm missing something but seems like a fairly good tradeoff. I'm just glad that I'll be able to continue to use my resources, not have to worry about a subscription model, and can purchase new resources as need and budget allow.

 

Posts 2298
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 12:34 PM

David Mullens:
I'm not sure FaithLife Connect is even meant for me. It is meant for new customers, but not for folks who need specific resources.
 

David, here again, you have identified the core issue. However, I see things a little differently. The price point for new customers I believe is discouraging when you view the alternatives. And as you have aptly observed the tier of customers with large libraries are likewise discouraged at the present price point from becoming adopters. I'm one of those with a large library and I see no value in FLC, my money will migrate to other alternatives moving forward. 

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 1392
James Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 26 2018 5:50 AM

Bob Pritchett:
with the help of a credit.

Bob Pritchett:
have emailed credit (or even free Faithlife Connect subscriptions) to ensure we're taking care of people

Bob Pritchett:
If you didn't get an email, or think we somehow let you down, contact us. We'll make it right.

As stated here... I still haven't received the email with the coupon. 

Logos 8  | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 10 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone X | iMac 27" i7, 16GB, SSD | OS 10.13

Posts 1886
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 26 2018 7:17 AM

After reading pretty much every post in every thread on this issue, and after further reflection, here are my current thoughts:

1) Connect is not a replacement for LN and never should have been implicitly positioned as such by automatically migrating people to one level or another in Connect. Bob's explanation clarifies that from FL's perspective, LN failed; and they went back to the drawing board for a new subscription model. The automatic migration contradicts Bob's explanation re. LN. If FL had simply given people a credit for the amount they had spent on LN and explained up front that Connect's target market is brand new Logos users, I suspect a lot of this drama and churn would have been avoided.

2) Mostly as a matter of curiosity, but partially as a matter of understanding Bob's comments, I'd love to know what portion of the $240/yr for Essentials is for benefits other than the core Logos application. Clearly they cost something, so after subtracting them out, whatever's left has to be in some way related to the "cost of doing business" to keep the core Logos application moving forward. FL / Bob don't owe me that, for sure, so I'm not expecting that level of detail. Just stating my interest in that detail...

3) Related to whatever that number would be, I have to wonder how FL's competitors can remain viable and profitable at < $100 / year upgrade prices when Bob says FL can't. As I said before, I'd pay ~$100/yr to know that I always had the latest features (including datasets), irrespective at what pace those features happened to be released. What I'd like to avoid is a new major release dropping and having to spend hundreds of dollars in one shot to get the latest features. But I think that's what I'm facing (albeit with a $200 credit the next time it happens).

My (most recent) $.02 ...

Donnie

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