What's the difference? (Lexham Discourse...)

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Mar 18 2018 6:31 AM

Can someone tell me whether there's a difference between to following two products (Other than the newer one not containing the "High Definition" resources)?

https://www.logos.com/product/6786/lexham-discourse-hebrew-bible-bundle 

https://www.logos.com/product/131520/lexham-discourse-greek-new-testament-datasets 

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David Staveley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 18 2018 6:50 AM

Reuben Helmuth:

Can someone tell me whether there's a difference between to following two products (Other than the newer one not containing the "High Definition" resources)?

https://www.logos.com/product/6786/lexham-discourse-hebrew-bible-bundle 

https://www.logos.com/product/131520/lexham-discourse-greek-new-testament-datasets 

Other than the fact that one is a Hebrew resource bundle, and the other is a Greek resource bundle, there is no apparent difference between them. Both are concerned with discourse method, rather than Lexical method. One deals with discourse method for the Hebrew bible; the other deals with discourse method for the Greek bible.

If you are unsure what the difference is between discourse and Lexical methods, please let me know, and I'll try to explain. 

Dr David Staveley Professor of New Testament. Specializing in the Pauline Epistles, Apocalyptic Judaism, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

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Scott E. Mahle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 18 2018 12:12 PM

And if you are interested in obtaining the Hebrew and Greek discourse datasets, please know these are also included in the Logos 7 Essential Upgrade (L) where you’ll certainly get more bang for your buck! Yes

Logos Series X Pastor’s Library | Logos 3 Leader’s Library | Logos 4 Portfolio | Logos 5 Platinum | Logos 6 Feature Crossgrade | Logos 7 Essential Upgrade - Large | Logos 8 Methodist & Wesleyan Platinum and Academic Professional

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 18 2018 1:43 PM

Sorry, I happened to grab the wrong link. Here’s the one I was referring to... https://www.logos.com/product/131521/lexham-discourse-hebrew-old-testament-datasets

Why does the six volume page say “For the most up to date collection of discourse on the Hebrew of the Old Testament, check out the Lexham Discourse Hebrew Old Testament Datasets.“? (Emphasis mine)

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 18 2018 1:49 PM

By the way, I own the 6 volume bundle and the 3 volume bundle is only show a few bucks off for my ”dynamic price” which has me confused. 

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 18 2018 1:52 PM

David Staveley:
If you are unsure what the difference is between discourse and Lexical methods

I actually had the privilege to study discourse analysis under Steven Levinsohn and am familiar with the field, but thanks!

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Marshall Harrison | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 18 2018 5:22 PM

David Staveley:
f you are unsure what the difference is between discourse and Lexical methods, please let me know, and I'll try to explain. 

I would love to hear your explanation.

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JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 1:35 AM

Marshall Harrison:

David Staveley:
f you are unsure what the difference is between discourse and Lexical methods, please let me know, and I'll try to explain. 

I would love to hear your explanation.

ditto. 

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GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 4:24 AM

I was too shy to ask, but having good company, I'd like to know too.

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 6:25 AM

I'll let David chime in as well, but one way to think of it is in terms of "broadness"...

Morphology is concerned with the form of individual words

Syntax is concerned with how these words form clauses

Discourse Analysis is concerned with how the "supra-clausal" features operate. Some things it looks at is how clauses relate to each other, how a language signals that the following info is new vs established, how it shows what is in focus, etc, etc.

Without discourse analysis it's possible to create entire "stories" in a new language where every sentence in syntactically correct and comprehensible to the mother tongue speakers, but the story fails to connect or perhaps even to make any sense!

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David Staveley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 6:35 AM

Marshall Harrison:

David Staveley:
f you are unsure what the difference is between discourse and Lexical methods, please let me know, and I'll try to explain. 

I would love to hear your explanation.

Okay, I'll give it a shot.

I think we all know about the Lexical meaning of words. This is the dictionary meaning that a word might have. As words normally never mean just one thing, we speak of words as having a semantic field. This is the range of possible meanings that a word can have. And it is this semantic field which defines a word's Lexical sense. Linguists tell us we should never confuse the Lexical sense of a word with concepts that a word might help to define or form within any specific context.

In the 1920's, particularly under the influence of Michel Foucault, a method of analysing word meanings was developed called discourse analysis. This sought to show that words can have their (Lexical) sense altered slightly by the words which surround them (that is, within the context of a particular text), without actually altering the primary Lexical meaning of a word. It is like the word takes on a new meaning, not always related to the semantic field the word might have. I'll give an example to clarify this from Cotterell and Turner's Linguistics and Biblical Interpretation:

A speaker may keep referring to his Uncle's bike, but (having formally introduced it earlier, as it were) now speaks of it as 'the bike'. Because the expression 'the bike' now still refers to Uncle George's old red one, this is all included in the concept denoted by the expression 'the bike' in the speaker's discourse, even though it is not properly part of the sense of 'the bike' as such. We need to distinguish here between what we might call the Lexical concepts (i.e. the sense of the respective lexical units) and discourse concepts - the latter being used to denote not only the lexical sense of the expressions involved, but also germane elements of meaning contributed by the context. Oldness, redness, and to-Uncle-George-belongingness would not be part of the lexical concept "bike", but would belong to the discourse concept 'the bike' in this particular situation

What is the significance of this? Using this method, we can analyse the text of the bible and see the satellite words orbiting a primary word in a text, and note how those satellite words are altering the Lexical sense of the primary word. Words are no longer simply tied down to their primary Lexical sense, but can take on new, hitherto unseen, meanings not strictly denoted by their semantic fields. 

Dr David Staveley Professor of New Testament. Specializing in the Pauline Epistles, Apocalyptic Judaism, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 6:38 AM

What he said.

Discourse analysis is a broad discipline, with different approaches. It's kind of hard to explain what the different approaches are. You may find certain approaches useful or not very useful.

Best thing to do is to try it free for 30 days (i.e. return it within 30 days if it doesn't work for you)

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 6:50 AM

My question, concerning the difference in products, remains. Could someone from FaithLife respond?

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Marshall Harrison | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 6:51 AM

Thanks for the explanation. I haven't hear it expressed in the definitive terms before. But its seems to  be the same as letting context modify or define the word rather than going by a strict dictionary definition.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 6:53 AM

Marshall Harrison:

Thanks for the explanation. I haven't hear it expressed in the definitive terms before. But its seems to  be the same as letting context modify or define the word rather than going by a strict dictionary definition.

That's just one facet of inquiry.

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David Staveley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 7:02 AM

Marshall Harrison:

Thanks for the explanation. I haven't hear it expressed in the definitive terms before. But its seems to  be the same as letting context modify or define the word rather than going by a strict dictionary definition.

Yes, that is exactly what it is. Discourse analysis is the fancy way of explaining how contexts modify a word rather than sticking to their strict dictionary sense. Didn't you know that all of the Biblical Sciences are just fancy ways of explaining how to read the bible? Wink

Dr David Staveley Professor of New Testament. Specializing in the Pauline Epistles, Apocalyptic Judaism, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 7:03 AM

Marshall Harrison:
its seems to  be the same as letting context modify or define the word rather than going by a strict dictionary definition

For some people, Discourse Analysis may be that. However, as Levinsohn (who has influenced Runge, the author of the Logos discourse products) teaches it, it is so much more than this. 

By the way, a synonymous term is Text Linguistics, which you'll see in the titles of some Logos resources.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 7:27 AM

If you're lucky to have or had a two year old, vocabulary is first (lexical). Then discourse (word stress, and loudly).  Then grammar (sort of). Finally syntax (much later).

In 1940s movies, the same sequence was applied for native americans by movie writers. As also when you visit a foreign land, hastily searching your dictionary.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 7:50 AM

David Staveley:
Okay, I'll give it a shot.

Thanks David. 

A lot of light bulbs started flashing as various things came together and my wife & I had a fruitful discussion over the lunch table about your post.

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David Staveley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 8:05 AM

JohnB:

David Staveley:
Okay, I'll give it a shot.

Thanks David. 

A lot of light bulbs started flashing as various things came together and my wife & I had a fruitful discussion over the lunch table about your post.

I'm glad to have helped. Big Smile

Dr David Staveley Professor of New Testament. Specializing in the Pauline Epistles, Apocalyptic Judaism, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

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