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shark tacos | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Sep 20 2009 11:25 AM

I found a reference in a book to a Hebrew phrase from the Talmud (B Sanh. 98b). The phrase can apparently be translated either as "messianic woes" or "eschatological birth pangs," which I thought was intriguing and so I wanted to dig deeper in the original Hebrew, which is (note that no vowel marks were given in the citation):

 

חבלו שׁל משׁיח

I would like to look these words up in one of the Hebrew lexicons in Logos (I have the Original Languages edition), but when I do a Word study search it cannot find anything. Can someone give me some pointers of how best to go about this?

 

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 20 2009 11:28 AM

edit: I can find some of the words, but not the first one

חבלו

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 20 2009 11:41 AM

So doing a bit of googling I found that

חֵבֶל

means "labor pains" and was able to find this word using the Hebrew Strongs numbers on Logos (I'm still confused as to why I could not find it by searching for the Hebbrew directly). So now the translation I get is 

"labor pains error anointed one"

Since this does not make much sense I'm thinking I must be getting the word "error" wrong.

 

שַׁל (šǎl): n.masc. ; Str 7944; TWOT 2389aLN 88.289-88.318 sin, error, accidental wrong-doing, i.e., an act. of transgression of the will of God, implying either a rash, imprudent act., or an irreverent act.

n. noun, or nouns
masc. masculine
Str Strong’s Lexicon
TWOT Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament
LN Louw-Nida Greek-English Lexicon
act. active voice
James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament), electronic ed., DBLH 8915 (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).


 

 

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 20 2009 11:47 AM

By the way, the English transltion of this passage from the Talmud is

Abaye enquired of Rabbah: 'What is your reason [for not wishing to see him]? Shall we say, because of the birth pangs [preceding the advent] of the Messiah?  But it has been taught, R. Eleazar's disciples asked him: 'What must a man do to be spared the pangs of the Messiah?' [He answered,] 'Let him engage in study and benevolence; and you Master do both.'

 

(my emphasis)

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 20 2009 1:15 PM

So I think I figured out that my mystery word is שֶׁל (šěl) or  שַׁ־ (šǎ-) meaning:

"
which, what, who, that one, i.e., a marker of a relative reference to an entity, event, or state." (Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains)

The only way I was able to find this was by doing a "find" in my Hebrew lexicon and rummaging through all the hits. Is there a better way to go about this type of thing? As I mentioned earlier, the result I got when I did a word search was שַׁל (šǎl): "sin, error, accidental wrong-doing" which is pretty clearly wrong.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 20 2009 4:42 PM

My first thought was Talmud - not necessarily Hebrew, likely Aramaic.

No vowels - mish-mash.

I can get some of the words by searching a Hebrew Bible, but none is guaranteed to be related to biblical Hebrew or Aramaic. The first is used with vowel points meaning rope or destruction but not labour pains! The second is used in the sense of error. But:-

2389.1     שַׁל (šal) possibly error from Aram שְׁאלַא (š˒la˒). Only in II Sam 6:7, meaning and derivation uncertain.

Harris, R. L., Harris, R. L., Archer, G. L., & Waltke, B. K. 1999, c1980. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (electronic ed.) (927). Moody Press: Chicago


Dave
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