Discrepancy between print and Logos editions of Rahlfs-Hanhart Septuaginta

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Posts 933
Matthew | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2018 8:09 PM

I noticed today that my print edition places single brackets around most of the text of Psalm 13:3, with the left bracket being just before the word τάφος and the right bracket being just after the final word of the verse (αὐτῶν). This is not the case in my Logos edition regardless of whether the "Bible text only" filter is on or off.

Both my print and my Logos edition show an ISBN of 978-3-438-05119-6 and a date of 2006, so in theory their texts should be identical because they are the same resource. While I am bringing this up, I would also like to ask why the Logos edition omits all of the introductory material such as "Introductory Remarks to the Revised Edition," "Editor's Preface," "History of the Septuagint Text," and "Explanation of Symbols." I do not see any warnings or disclaimers on the product page alerting customers that material has been removed. Again, if the ISBN matches, shouldn't the contents be the same? Am I missing something here?

LXXSESB
2016-08-10T22:33:44Z
LXXSESB.logos4

Posts 4905
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2018 10:46 PM

I can't offer specific advice on this title but there are occasions where the licensing agreement between the publisher and Logos is for the text only and things like front matter and / or images are excluded.  I agree if that is the case it should be clearly indicated on the product page.

Hopefully someone who knows the details of this resource can assist you with a direct answer to your question Matthew. 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2018 12:52 AM

Disciple of Christ (doc):
I can't offer specific advice on this title but there are occasions where the licensing agreement between the publisher and Logos is for the text only and things like front matter and / or images are excluded.  I agree if that is the case it should be clearly indicated on the product page.

I think that this resource is in fact very old, the name suggests it was part of the very early SESB CD-ROM packages. Besides the licensing agreements for SESB material probably really being a nightmare (indications for which we have seen on numerous instances over the years, and still see in the inavailability of so many resources, like bibles in many languages sold with the SESB), back in the early days of Logos, many "technical" resources like Hebrew/Greek/Latin bibles, apparatuses, synopses (which Logos calls "harmonies"), were produced without front and back matter, indexes, appendices and other stuff found in the printed book. This seems to be especially true for third-party-produced resources, but sometimes it related to the mindset existing around the Bellingham HQ back then ("we don't need to produce an index from the printed book, since our software is so much better to locate stuff in the resource").     

There have been discussions about that in the forum over the years - one I specifically recall was about the text-critical Vulgate edition that was part of SESB, too. I'm not sure whether there was a license issue involved at all - maybe it was more the perceived customer expectation measured against the effort/cost of producing this stuff in the IT-technical production environment that was existing for third parties like the GBS back then.

Anyway, I think both the technical possibilities as well as the customer expectations have changed over the years and thus IMO an effort should be made to include the missing material into those resources where it is lacking.    

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2018 12:55 AM

Yes

Posts 933
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2018 4:53 AM

I have been with Logos since around 2009 and seem to recall some of the discussions about whether indexes in particular were needed. While I would like the introductory material to be included, I understand licensing issues might be at play here (only Faithlife could say for sure).

Still, the larger issue to me is the missing brackets. Are they in fact missing in the Logos edition, or could it be that I somehow have them hidden? If information like that is missing from the text, that is a problem. That kind of information is (in theory) the whole reason people buy and use critical editions.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2018 5:06 AM

Matthew:
Still, the larger issue to me is the missing brackets. Are they in fact missing in the Logos edition, or could it be that I somehow have them hidden? If information like that is missing from the text, that is a problem. That kind of information is (in theory) the whole reason people buy and use critical editions.

I don't see any brackets in the verse in my Logos edition either (have no picture of the printed edition to compare - maybe you could upload it?), but maybe the creators of the Logos edition felt that the apparatus remark did the job? Or it's an oversight that will be corrected when you address it to the Faithlife team (e.g. via typo report).  

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 933
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2018 5:23 AM

Both good ideas! I will attempt to upload a picture and report the typo later today when I am home. The apparatus indicates that the text is missing in Codex Alexandrinus, but the presence of brackets in the text makes a much stronger statement. According to the missing introductory material, it specifically "indicates that the words in brackets do not belong to the original LXX text." There is definitely a difference between text being omitted by one manuscript and text not belonging to begin with. For the record, I have full confidence that Faithlife will correct this if their license permits them to do so. My initial concern was just finding out which edition was correct - my hard copy or my digital copy.

[Edited for clarification]

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2018 11:25 AM

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2018 2:10 PM

Just chiming in to say I saw this.

Two notes:

  1. The missing bracket seems to be easy enough to fix. I've made a note to get it fixed.
  2. It's very odd that there is no front matter to the apparatus. I'm guessing it was purposeful at the time. I'm finding out what those reasons are. My hunch is we'll be good to go to add the front matter but I can't promise anything yet.
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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2018 4:15 PM

Thanks for the rapid response.

Going a little off-topic here: I think sometimes ancillary material is adapted for electronic media. I see this as a good thing. But it could lead to inconvenience as well.

Example: Jouon-Muraoka's A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew has an Index of Passages:

In the Logos version, the Index is adapted:

1. There is a complete list of extra-scriptural entries, even more than those listed in the printed book's Index. This is classy and good!

2. All canonical and deuterocanonicals are omitted. Intentional because redundant? Despite the software search capabilities, those entries are not totally redundant. I feel that leaving in the original entries might have been more prudent.

 

Posts 933
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2018 4:17 PM

Kyle G. Anderson:
I've made a note to get it fixed.

Kyle, thank you for giving this your attention! I was looking at this resource some more today and noticed another peculiarity. Since the psalm numbers in the Septuagint do not always "line up" with the psalm numbers in the Masoretic Text, the apparatus includes a note under verse 1 of most psalms pointing the reader to the corresponding psalm in the Masoretic Text. The image Lee graciously uploaded for me shows that Psalm 13 in the Septuagint corresponds with Psalm 14 in the Masoretic Text. Rather than the Logos edition notifying the reader that the "M" stands for the Masoretic Text, it incorrectly tells the reader that it refers to a 7th century Septuagint manuscript containing 1-3 Kings called Codex Coislinianus that has been given the designation "M." It is a simple enough mistake to make, but it appears to be repeated throughout the book of Psalms in the Logos edition.

Posts 933
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2018 5:34 PM

Kyle,

There seem to be more systematic problems with this resource. It is not just that the brackets are missing at Psalm 13:3. It is that ALL brackets appear to be missing. The following list represents places where I have confirmed that the print edition has brackets but the Logos edition does not.

Tobit 5:14 (alternate texts)
Σεμε[λ]ιου

Psalm 13:3
[τάφος ἀνεῳγμένος ὁ λάρυγξ αὐτῶν, ταῖς γλώσσαις αὐτῶν ἐδολιοῦσαν, ἰὸς ἀσπίδων ὑπὸ τὰ χείλη αὐτῶν, ὧν τὸ στόμα ἀρᾶς καὶ πικρίας γέμει, ὀξεῖς οἱ πόδες αὐτῶν ἐκχέαι αἷμα, σύντριμμα καὶ ταλαιπωρία ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς αὐτῶν, καὶ ὁδὸν εἰρήνης οὐκ ἔγνωσαν, οὐκ ἔστιν φόβος θεοῦ ἀπέναντι τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν.]

Psalm 17:20
[ῥύσεταί με ἐξ ἐχθρῶν μου δυνατῶν καὶ ἐκ τῶν μισούντων με.]

Psalm 24:14
[καὶ τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου τῶν φοβουμένων αὐτόν,]

Psalm 37:21
[καὶ ἀπέρριψάν με τὸν ἀγαπητὸν ὡσεὶ νεκρὸν ἐβδελυγμένον.]

Psalm 65:1
[ἀναστάσεως.]

Psalm 70:21
[καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἀβύσσων τῆς γῆς πάλιν ἀνήγαγές με.]

Psalm 118:104
[ὅτι σὺ ἐνομοθέτησάς μοι.]

Psalm 134:17
[ῥῖνας ἔχουσιν καὶ οὐκ ὀσφρανθήσονται, χεῖρας ἔχουσιν καὶ οὐ ψηλαφήσουσιν, πόδας ἔχουσιν καὶ οὐ περιπατήσουσιν, οὐ φωνήσουσιν ἐν τῷ λάρυγγι αὐτῶν,]

Psalm 146:8
[καὶ χλόην τῇ δουλείᾳ τῶν ἀνθρώπων,]

Proverbs 3:6
[ὁ δὲ πούς σου οὐ μὴ προσκόπτῃ.]

The following passages are places where the print edition uses <> rather than []. The Logos edition is likewise missing these. According to the "Explanation of Symbols" in the introductory material, <> "indicates that the letters in brackets are my own additions."

Daniel 1:18
ἀρχ<ι>ευνούχου

Daniel 10:8
ἐ<γ>κατελείφθη

Daniel 11:3
κυρ<ι>είας

Daniel 11:4
κυρ<ι>είαν

Bel and the Dragon 5
κυρ<ι>είαν

Note that the passages I have included in this post represent every single place brackets were used in the 1979 edition by Rahlfs. If the 2006 edition by Rahlfs-Hanhart (the edition this thread is about) added brackets to any additional passages, those passages are still missing from this list. It seems clear that this resource has multiple problems, and I hope I have provided enough evidence to warrant Faithlife looking into the matter further. This is the scholarly edition of the Septuagint used by most people, and my confidence in the Logos edition is somewhat shaken. The presence of the errors I have identified makes me wonder what additional errors there may be. I remain confident that Faithlife will take care of the problem, just like they always do. YesCool

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2018 12:11 PM

Matthew:

This is the scholarly edition of the Septuagint used by most people, and my confidence in the Logos edition is somewhat shaken. The presence of the errors I have identified makes me wonder what additional errors there may be. I remain confident that Faithlife will take care of the problem, just like they always do. YesCool

To ease your mind a bit, until this thread there hasn't been a single reported typo in 10 years.

Further, the Bible text itself was provided to us by GBS. For whatever reason they chose to supply us with Bible text that omitted the brackets. For this I'm sure there were reasons but they're obscure to me now.

We're in contacts with GBS to confirm we're free to go back and add the brackets. I don't anticipate any issues on that front but you never know.

Posts 933
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 17 2018 7:24 PM

Kyle,

Glad to hear it. I can only imagine how much work and attention to detail go into creating the Logos editions of critical texts such as this one, and I know you can only work with what you have. At risk of trying your patience with me, I spent some more time this evening comparing my print and Logos editions. I found one more thing I consider to be an error and then then something systematic that seems to have been a judgement call that I hope can be reconsidered.

First, the error. In the "Explanation of Symbols" section, there is a * symbol and there is a (*) symbol. I can only find the (*) symbol in one place in the Logos edition. It is located in EsdB 15:15 in the critical apparatus. The Logos resource does not know that the parentheses are part of the symbol. They are treated as plain text, while the * between them has a mouseover pop-up saying "lectio prima codicis" (which is the correct pop-up for * but not for (*)).

Second, the judgement call. It seems like a lot (all?) of the symbols used in the apparatus have Latin descriptions in the mouseover pop-ups. For example, the * symbol in the critical apparatus, as just mentioned, has a pop-up description of "lectio prima codicis."It would be more helpful if the English description "the original reading of a MS" appeared instead of or at the very least alongside the Latin description.

Another example is that the symbol c in the critical apparatus is linked to show "corrector i. e. qui primum textum, qui etiam nunc cognosci potest, alio textu supplevit." It would be more helpful to also have the English "corrector, i. e. one who has replaced the original and still recognisable text by another text." Another example is that the symbol r shows "rescriptor i. e. qui primum textum correxit et omnino sustulit, ut hic legi iam non possit." It would be more helpful to also have the English "rescriptor, i. e. one who, in his correction, has so completely set aside the original text that it is no longer recognisable." Etc, etc.

The print edition of this particular resource has its introductory material written in German, English, Latin, and Greek. It seems clear that when the Logos edition was made, a decision was made to use the Latin section for hyperlinking purposes. If Faithlife is going to be updating this resource, might you consider including the English along with the Latin when users move their mouse over symbols in the apparatus? This functionality will be particularly important if for some reason Faithlife is unable to include the English introductory information.

Thanks again for looking into this. I promise I am not trying to be a pain in your side, and I wouldn't be taking the time to post all these concerns if I wasn't so passionate about using the products you make!

Posts 4905
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2018 4:46 PM

Matthew:

While I am bringing this up, I would also like to ask why the Logos edition omits all of the introductory material such as "Introductory Remarks to the Revised Edition," "Editor's Preface," "History of the Septuagint Text," and "Explanation of Symbols." I do not see any warnings or disclaimers on the product page alerting customers that material has been removed. Again, if the ISBN matches, shouldn't the contents be the same? Am I missing something here?

LXXSESB
2016-08-10T22:33:44Z
LXXSESB.logos4

NB.Mick:

Disciple of Christ (doc):
I can't offer specific advice on this title but there are occasions where the licensing agreement between the publisher and Logos is for the text only and things like front matter and / or images are excluded.  I agree if that is the case it should be clearly indicated on the product page.

I think that this resource is in fact very old, the name suggests it was part of the very early SESB CD-ROM packages.

Further to the issue about the front matter I found something intriguing.  

My copy of Rahlfs Morphologically Tagged Text is also in the very old class. It originated in the days when the LLS file format was used as can be seen by the original file id, but has now been converted to the Logos 4 file format.

https://www.logos.com/resources/LLS_1.0.301/septuaginta-morphologically-tagged-edition 

And it does contain Rahlfs preface but on other front matter... note the file id of LLS:1.0.301 because the intriguing bit comes follows this first screenshot.

Listed as part of the Feature Expansion Master Collection is "Septuagint" which by the asterisk it indicates I don't have license.

https://www.logos.com/product/53313/feature-expansion-master-collection

(The new to me section says there are 19 new resources but only lists 18 and the Septuaginta is not in the list of 18 - as a side issue).

When I follow the link to get more information about this version of the Septuaginta its description is in Spanish and has a resource id: LLS:1.0.300 from the web page link - remembering the old morph tagged copy I own has id of LLS:1.03.301, so this file must be from same.

https://www.logos.com/resources/LLS_1.0.300/septuaginta 

Not the highlighted text in the description. It is suggesting it contains an introduction in Modern Greek, Latin, German and English. So did we once have this front matter in Logos, all be it in a edition produce for an early Spanish Logos Library and why is it showing up as part of the Feature Expansion Master Collection?

Posts 933
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 20 2018 8:19 PM

DoC, that is an interesting find. It got me looking at some other Logos resources as well. I discovered that although the Septuagint with Logos Morphology does not include any introductory material either, the product page (1) says that it "includes the corrected, updated, and revised 2006 text" and (2) lists a publication date of 2006. Both of these things imply it is the Rahlfs-Hanhart text. In skimming through the resource, it does include the brackets that are currently missing from the SESB version, which on the surface might suggest this is the more accurate text. However, upon closer inspection, I think the reality is that the product description page is simply mistaken and needs to be corrected. The resource itself offers a citation date of 1979 rather than 2006, and Hanhart's name is nowhere to be found on the product page, in the resource itself, or in the resource's metadata.

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Claudio Alves Pereira | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2018 12:26 PM

Yes, very strangely!

There aren't the pages 670-719 in the Logos-Version from Jüon-Muraoka.

But when you have Bibleworks 10 to, they are there ! (In the old versions I dont know.)

---> Bibleworks 10, Resources, Hebrew Grammar, Jüon-Muraoka, INDEX OF PASSAGES (pp. 669-719)

Posts 933
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 8 2019 4:22 AM

Kyle, just bumping this thread in case you happen to still be monitoring it. It has been more than a year, and I was just wondering if there are any updates you are able to share. Thanks.

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 8 2019 8:27 AM

I can only add that the "Septuagint with Logos Morphology" is Rahlfs, not Rahlfs-Hanhart. My understanding of the differences — which may be totally wrong — is that the text of R & R-H is virtually identical (with perhaps one change in Isaiah, but I don't recall where?) but the apparatus is updated/corrected/expanded and primarily where the differences lie.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

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