Help Me Compare New vs Original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge

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Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jun 20 2018 12:28 PM

Hello All - I am looking at the NEW Treasury fo Scripture Knowledge and wondering if it's a worthy upgrade to the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge? 

I know the Original TSK fuels the cross-references in my guides.  Does the NTSK provide more? Different ones? Is there any added benefit?

I see it comes packaged with Courson's Application Bundle for a few dollars less and I am considering purchasing it with a coupon I received recently.  Any help you have to offer is much appreciated!

Links...

Original TSK: https://www.logos.com/product/38877/the-treasury-of-scripture-knowledge 

NEW TSK: https://www.logos.com/product/1214/the-new-treasury-of-scripture-knowledge 

Jon Courson's Application Commentary bundle: https://www.logos.com/product/38869/jon-coursons-application-commentary-new-testament 

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James Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 12:38 PM

Richard Villanueva:
Does the NTSK provide more? Different ones? Is there any added benefit?

from the description..."100,000 new cross-references". It also contains comments and figures of speech tagging/information as well. 

from the Introduction...

...At several places I have provided notes of a more scholarly nature because the passage involved has been misunderstood by many interpreters or particular religious movements. It has been my purpose to help Bible students understand such verses at the verse where the difficulty arises. 


The original Treasury was developed from the references in the Reverend Thomas Scott’s Commentary, supplemented by the references in the center column of the English Polyglot Bible. The pages of the Treasury were designed to match the page content of editions of the Polyglot Bible in English published by Samuel Bagster and Sons of London. The effort to match the paging of this particular edition of the Bible led to what have been some unfortunate features in all former editions, most especially the tiny print in the Psalms and elsewhere, where the references are cramped into three columns on a page. In some portions of Scripture, where the number of cross-references to be adduced were few, the rest of the page was taken up with explanatory notes on the passages. Most of these notes have been retained. Additional notes have been provided where it was thought helpful, many from the Comprehensive Bible, the source of most of the original Treasury notes. Examples of these include notes at Genesis 38:21, Exodus 40:2, and Judges 9:54. I have modified a few of the original notes of the Treasury to reflect a more accurate understanding of Bible prophecy. Notes at Ezekiel 48:4, Daniel 2:44, and Micah 4:4 reflect such modification. I have written a number of new notes for this edition. These are identified under the Subject Index entry “Notes written for this edition.” In this new edition, Roman numerals are no longer used, as they were in all former editions, to designate Bible chapter numbers.


The chapter headnotes have been expanded and given in greater detail. For the most part these were taken directly from Scott’s Commentary, rarely supplemented by the headnotes in Matthew Poole’s Commentary. I expanded the headnotes for Leviticus, chapter 19, and Deuteronomy, chapter 28. I modified the headnotes for several of the chapters of Zechariah to reflect a more accurate, consistent, literal view of prophetic interpretation. These headnotes are of much assistance in locating the subject matter of a chapter. Frequently I recall that a particular incident is mentioned in a book of the Bible, but I may not be able to think of a specific word used in the account, and therefore cannot use Strong’s Concordance to locate the desired passage. The headnotes efficiently direct my attention to the passage sought.
Thomas Scott was the original compiler of the cross-references in The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. I have adhered closely to Scott’s original intent as expressed in the following quotes from his Preface Postscript:

“In numerous instances the references are entirely original, and in almost all many are so.”

I have added many original references to those of the original Treasury, and still more from the Commentary Wholly Biblical, Robert Young’s Concise Critical Comments, and The New Testament with Fuller References. “In some of the original references, the Author’s idea [i.e., Scott’s] may not at once be perceived by the reader: but, if the several places referred to be consulted, it will generally appear.”


I have remarked on this problem in the next section, “How to Use This Book.” “He has sometimes proceeded by way of contrast, that the reader, by comparing the opposite characters or conduct of the persons mentioned, may more clearly perceive the excellency or evil of the case in question.”


I have extended this feature in some places (1 S 25:17; 2 K 5:13) with additional references, and have used a special symbol (◐) to indicate contrast.

“Or by comparing the different language of Scripture, used on the same subject, he may more readily see the true interpretation, especially on controverted subjects; or at least be better enabled to judge for himself.”


I have attempted to advance the doctrine of private judgment (Ga 1:8n) and the perspicuity of Scripture (Is 8:20n) to this very purpose. Controversial subjects have not been shunned. Scripture evidence for valid alternative doctrinal or interpretative positions has been marshalled. The false doctrines held by those of Arian and Unitarian persuasion have been carefully addressed, particularly the doctrinal positions of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

“Some pains have likewise been taken, even on those parts of Scripture which chiefly consist of names, to point out other passages, in which the same persons or places are mentioned; and to mark the difference in spelling the same name, or the different names for the same person or place which occur in different parts, and the different places and persons called by the same name. Sometimes the unlearned reader is perplexed or misled by these variations; and this part of the references often contains all, which even the most learned know upon the subject, especially in the genealogies.”


This feature of the original Treasury has been extended to the point that the Treasury is now exhaustively complete on these matters, with an accuracy surpassing, in some places, that of Strong’s Concordance and other standard reference sources. The literal meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek names is given. The meanings were taken largely from Young’s Concise Critical Comments, the tables of such names in volume three of The Commentary Wholly Biblical, supplemented by occasional reference to the definitions from several dictionaries of Bible names, particularly the dictionary revised and edited by Philip Schaff, “Comprehensive Bible Helps,” in the Funk and Wagnalls edition of Wilmore’s New Analytical Reference Bible (Copyright 1891, 1910, 1918). This information is readily accessed by means of the complete Index to the names in Scripture at the end of this volume.

“The meaning of scriptural phrases may also be often fixed, by comparing the several places where they are used. This is the intent of many sets of references; while others refer to the doctrine or promise inculcated in the passage, and tend to establish a scriptural interpretation.”


Doctrinal topics have been carefully referenced, indexed, and expanded, utilizing the excellent material found in Charles Simmons’ A Scripture Manual and other standard sources. Bible promises have been indexed and expanded, using Samuel Clark’s Precious Bible Promises. Bible references to prayer have been expanded and indexed, using Philip Watters’ work, The Prayers of the Bible. References to unfulfilled Bible prophecy have been made more complete by a thorough study of George N. H. Peters’ The Theocratic Kingdom of our Lord Jesus, the Christ. The precise extent to which this is so may be determined by examining the subject index entries under this author’s name. I have expanded the references which relate to prophetic subjects. Reference to Isaiah 55:3, Matthew 5:5, and Luke 21:36 will furnish a sampling of the extent to which this has been done.


On important themes of practical and contemporary interest, forward and backward referencing has been increased. Passages of practical (Hab 2:20, 1 Co 15:55), prophetic (Am 9:14, 15, Lk 21:36), and doctrinal (Am 3:6, Mt 24:45, 28:19) significance have been so referenced. Thus, at Amos 3:6 will be found many references not supplied before to the other passages in Scripture which treat the same themes, which themselves (in the Treasury) contain a cross-reference to Amos 3:6.


Figures of speech are identified. I believe this edition of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge contains the most comprehensive listing and identification of the figures of speech in the Bible ever produced in English.


The “Preface to the Treasury Bible” supplies the following important explanation not found in any current printings of The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge: “To preserve the distinction between the Various Readings [from the A.V.] and the editorial remarks and explanations which occur, the word “or” in the one case is printed in italics, with a small o; in the other in Roman, with a capital O: thus, Ge 4:13, “My punishment is greater than I can bear. or, Mine iniquity is greater than that it may be forgiven.” In Ge 19:1, it is said, “And there came two angels. Or rather, ‘the two angels came.’ ”


I have adhered to this principle as far as possible. When adding alternative translations not provided by the A.V. translators, such as those I have adduced from Young’s Literal Translation and its accompanying Concise Critical Comments, I have introduced the alternative rendering by an unitalicized “or.” “When the references illustrate the whole verse, the italic words are not printed, because not required.”


This feature has been eliminated. All sets of reference passages in this new edition of the Treasury are keyed to the appropriate words of the text of the Authorized Version, eliminating the ambiguity present in the original system.


Thomas Scott used the words “see on” to indicate a passage where a more complete set of references was collected. I have restored many instances of this feature which were inadvertently deleted or inconsistently retained in the original editions of the Treasury. I have expanded this most helpful feature by using the symbol “+” in many more places. Thomas Scott’s system is thus left intact. It may be distinguished from mine by the two different markings for essentially the same feature.


Cross-references have an advantage over chain references in that all the references are presented at one location, and with the new system of symbols introduced to this edition of the Treasury, the relative clarity, significance, or relationships of the references is presented at a single glance to the reader.


Studying all the references given for a text, then the references which that text can lead to, and so forth, will enable the careful student of Scripture to consider all the material in the Bible which relates to the subject or passage being studied.


Frequently in Bible study the student will want to know, “But what does the rest of Scripture have to say on this matter?” The only resource which can provide an answer will often be found to be the Treasury. No combination of additional Bible study tools quite duplicates the content of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. At many places in the Bible the Treasury will be found more complete. Almost always it will have far more cross-references than any other source or combination of sources.


Scott comments, “The degree of labor and attention, which has been used to render the printing of the references correct, cannot easily be conceived: yet probably some errors still remain.” I have found five errors in Scott’s London Edition that were corrected in the original Treasury; four errors in the London Edition that were corrected in the American edition; twenty-eight errors in the London edition, which I corrected in this new edition of the Treasury during my typing and proofreading of the manuscript. Something over 4,000 corrections involving unjustifiable changes and deletions from Scott’s original references, and no less than 680 actual printing errors in the current edition of the original Treasury—459 from the Old Testament, 221 from the New Testament—have been found and corrected for this new edition of the Treasury. This new edition, therefore, is the most accurate collection of these extensive references available.


Smith, J. H. (1992). The new treasury of scripture knowledge: The most complete listing of cross references available anywhere- every verse, every theme, every important word. Nashville TN: Thomas Nelson.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 12:41 PM

Richard Villanueva:
I am looking at the NEW Treasury fo Scripture Knowledge and wondering if it's a worthy upgrade to the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge?

Screen shot of resources shows NTSK has more than TSK for Philippians 4 (same font scaling setting):

Keep Smiling Smile

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Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 12:44 PM

James Taylor:
from the Introduction...

Oh! Do you own this resource?? Do the figures of speech populate the "figurative language"  and cross-references populate in the Cross References portions in the guides for you?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Screen shot of resources shows NTSK has more than TSK for Philippians 4 (same font scaling setting):

Thanks! That is helpful.

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Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 12:46 PM

What I currently see, owning only TSK (not all the references for Gen 1, posted this just to show that it is a resource that populates this part of the guide.)

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 12:52 PM

Logos 7.16 Beta 3 Screen Shot of Cross References in Passage Guide for Philippians 4:4-9

Keep Smiling Smile

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 1:24 PM

For the curious, Jerome Smith's comment (four places). I didn't quite understand 'the Ultimate' edition:

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/128621/836053.aspx#836053 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 2:21 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Unless there has been a recent change, the bottom portion of this section is filled primarily from your Bibles while the top portion provides links to xref resources.

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Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 2:47 PM

MJ. Smith:
Unless there has been a recent change, the bottom portion of this section is filled primarily from your Bibles while the top portion provides links to xref resources.

Woah - I'm going to have to check this out.  I've always assumed the bottom portion was results gathered from the TSK...

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 2:48 PM

MJ is quite correct. No recent changes to this

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 3:11 PM

Richard Villanueva:

MJ. Smith:
Unless there has been a recent change, the bottom portion of this section is filled primarily from your Bibles while the top portion provides links to xref resources.

Woah - I'm going to have to check this out.  I've always assumed the bottom portion was results gathered from the TSK...

Screen shot shows NTSK including John 16:33 cross reference for Peace (Shalom) in Philippians 4:7, which was not found in consolidated list from Bibles:

Keep Smiling Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 3:41 PM

Which raises 2 questions in my mind:

  1. Does anyone know what resources (all of them) can appear in the top section? I know I am missing one that KS4J has in German.
  2. Several years back, we had some problems with Bibles not getting the correct metadata to appear in the bottom portion. Logos flipped some hidden switches and all was well. Has anyone checked that new Bibles with xrefs appear in the bottom portion?

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Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 3:55 PM
MJ, regarding your second question, this causes me to ask: Are the scriptures listed as cross referenced different in each bible translation? I see yours will bring them up in the NRSV. Mine is set to ESV. Does that just differentiate version, or does each version present a different list of cross-references? I am also assuming the translation presented is determined by my preferred bible.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 4:16 PM

Richard Villanueva:
MJ, regarding your second question, this causes me to ask: Are the scriptures listed as cross referenced different in each bible translation? I see yours will bring them up in the NRSV. Mine is set to ESV. Does that just differentiate version, or does each version present a different list of cross-references? I am also assuming the translation presented is determined by my preferred bible.

It uses all your Bibles that have cross references. Most Bibles translations will have different cross-references, so this section draws them together. The ones presented in full at the beginning are the ones that appear most often. 

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Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 4:33 PM

Mark -awesome!!  Thank you.  this thread has been really illuminating to me today!!

So then the Hyperlink provided of the title of the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge is only accessed when I click on it.  Kind of like how I access my commentaries in the commentary section of the Passage Guide?

Huh - so I've never actually USED the TSK before.  How funny - I unwittingly assumed that the cross-references shown were from that resource, not from the bibles I own!  Not sure how I came to that conclusion, honestly.  But I am sure glad I asked today.

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Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 5:40 PM

Richard Villanueva:
I unwittingly assumed that the cross-references shown were from that resource, not from the bibles I own!  Not sure how I came to that conclusion, honestly.

I think it's what most of us assumed; I know I did until I read another thread on the topic some time back. It comes up a on the forums a bit. It is what the interface seems to indicate. It might be clearer if the Cross References section immediately displayed the list of references and then, under the references, said "See Also: TSK, NTSK, ..."

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Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 5:57 PM

Randy W. Sims:
It might be clearer if the Cross References section immediately displayed the list of references and then, under the references, said "See Also: TSK, NTSK, ..."

Agreed!  Or even it the lower half said: "References from your Bibles:"  Something that differentiates the two in a more clear manner.  Good to know I'm not alone.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 6:37 PM

Randy W. Sims:

Richard Villanueva:
I unwittingly assumed that the cross-references shown were from that resource, not from the bibles I own!  Not sure how I came to that conclusion, honestly.

I think it's what most of us assumed; I know I did until I read another thread on the topic some time back.

Finally, a place where those of us who use a longer canon have an advantage Wink  At the time I bought in TSK, NTSK were the only items in the top section. The presence of deuterocanonical books in the bottom half served as a big clue it wasn't from the NTSK. Big Smile

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Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2018 9:45 PM

MJ. Smith:
Finally, a place where those of us who use a longer canon have an advantage Wink 

i literally laughed out loud (audibly!) your comment wins the best reply award for this thread.  🏆 Congratulations.

Deuterocannon for the win!

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2018 12:20 AM

MJ. Smith:

Which raises 2 questions in my mind:

  1. Does anyone know what resources (all of them) can appear in the top section? I know I am missing one that KS4J has in German.

No to your question (you might consider contacting Eli or someone else inside Faithlife who knows or has access to the internal documentation Devil ). But you can easily get the missing cross-reference source, as it is part of the free German language Jantzen-Jettel bible .  

EDIT: it seems, those are the resources of type:"bible-cross-reference index" - I personally find TSK, NTSK, Jantzen-Jettel and for the Psalms, https://www.logos.com/product/31041/a-textual-commentary-on-the-book-of-psalms in my library (and would assume that the "Tesoro" resource is a Spanish translation of TSK, as per the start of the sample page, it contains exactly the same text and references)

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