Orthodox Ordo Salutis

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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Sep 28 2018 5:28 PM

I am looking for a book that lays out the eastern orthodox ordo salutis, and the roman catholic ordo salutis. Any suggestions? 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 28 2018 6:33 PM

You realize, I assume, that "ordo salutis" is a Protestant theological concept arising in debates in the pre-Reformation period but not gaining the name until early Lutheran theology. It is highly unlikely that the Eastern (Byzantine) Orthodox have a single view and "Roman" as applied to Catholic refers to rite not theology. There is a list commonly used for the "Catholic" view; unfortunately, it was not created by a Catholic theologian and reflects a sense of time that misses entirely Paul's now/not yet sense of time. My advice: be suspicious of all answers offered, including this one.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 28 2018 7:23 PM

I would think if there was a single view for the orthodox it would be something simple like grace, faith then theosis. Scouring my library I find nothing that helps me in this.

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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 28 2018 7:24 PM

Do any of the Orthodox churches have a systematic theology? I might be able to draw one up by comparing 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 28 2018 7:35 PM

No, neither the Byzantine (Eastern) Orthodox nor the Oriental Orthodox developed an obsession with systematization. Systematic Theology is a Western Church thing. Some reflections you may find helpful https://www.goarch.org/-/how-are-we-saved-  or http://www.pravoslavie.ru/46463.html Note: both are responses to Evangelical views not completely internal church views.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 28 2018 7:47 PM

I get it, they seem to be more apophatic with their theology. Systematic theology would push them too far into a cataphatic realm. Still, it would be nice to be able to study their theology. Is there a work that can be recommended for Greek or Antiochian Orthodox churches?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 28 2018 7:51 PM

Many of the resources listed here are very accessible - and some are in Logos, I believe. http://www.goann.net/know-your-why/annotated-bibliography

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 28 2018 8:02 PM

Overly simplified but concepts of being marked by baptism is fairly key. I am not saying either RCC or Orthodox would try to claim that there is nothing beyond that but I think reading Taught by God may give you the most satisfying answer’s to you inquiry in the Orthodox venue. 

-Dan

https://www.logos.com/product/42336/taught-by-god-an-introduction-to-orthodox-theology

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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 28 2018 8:45 PM

Thanks Dan that looks like a good book. I will pick that one up for sure. 

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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 28 2018 8:46 PM

MJ that is a good list. I wish more of those resources were available in logos. That first link was great btw

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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 28 2018 11:02 PM

"This is not to imply that the Eastern Fathers never produced any systematic writings. One has only to look at The Great Catechetical Oration of St. Gregory of Nyssa, as well as the classic Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St. John Damascene, among other patristic writings, to see that this is not the case. Still, for the Fathers, the impetus for their writings was based on their ecclesial experience of the glorified Christ, and not on a desire for a systematic study for its own sake.93 And there are far fewer systematic theologies written by Orthodox theologians to this day than there are by Western theologians."

Boosalis, H. M. (2010). Taught by God: An Introduction to Orthodox Theology (p. 69). South Canaan, PA: St. Tikhon’s Seminary Press.


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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 29 2018 8:45 AM

Dan, I read the book. It was a good recommendation. I don't think I will look at icons the same. Nor did I expect the book to go in that direction. In the west, we speak a lot of justification, regeneration, sanctification, adoption. The book had very little of that talk. To be honest the jump to the speaking of the icons was odd in my reading. I read the section a few times. I still don't see how the debate about icons was actually a christ centered salvation contraversy. Overall good book and it led me to other books. Thanks 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 29 2018 1:10 PM

Blair Laird:
In the west, we speak a lot of justification, regeneration, sanctification, adoption.

Actually, those topics are rare in some Western circles which is why there is such a gulf of mis-communication between us. I am delighted you enjoyed the book.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 29 2018 10:02 PM

Many protestant/evangelical may use those terms but I agree they are not really all that common in the larger western church sin RCC makes up the vast majority of that. Indeed another big segment would have to be Lutheran and Anglican and while justification sanctification may be prominent in Lutheran discussion historicallay I can’t say that I had heard much of it either brewing up in the Lutheran church or in publicat that I read by them. 

-dan

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