German is Important

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Oct 25 2018 7:22 PM

We have an active German community in the forums. I am aware that a prior thread has requested language tools be added to Logos so that those of us who don't know German can learn the language. I fully support this idea. I request that we start by getting the best available lexicon to add to our libraries.

It would be great if we could collect recommendations from our German speaking forum participants as to which lexicon would be best. I'm reading Stories With Intent and the German terms Sache and Bild are mentioned. I used Google Translate to arrive at an understanding of these terms, but I'm not satisfied with the result. Perhaps one of our German speaking forum members would care to elaborate on their meaning.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 4:01 AM

Beloved:
I am aware that a prior thread has requested language tools be added to Logos so that those of us who don't know German can learn the language.

Yes

Posts 2786
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 4:44 AM

Beloved:
It would be great if we could collect recommendations from our German speaking forum participants as to which lexicon would be best.

The two leading publishers for German dictionaries are Langenscheidt and Pons. Since Logos already offers the Pons Hebrew/German lexicon, I assume there's a contract in place with this publisher.

Beloved:
I'm reading Stories With Intent and the German terms Sache and Bild are mentioned. I used Google Translate to arrive at an understanding of these terms, but I'm not satisfied with the result. Perhaps one of our German speaking forum members would care to elaborate on their meaning.

That could only be answered in context. Since English has more words than any other language, naturally, such general words as Bild and Sache have a wide variety of meanings in English.

https://de.langenscheidt.com/englisch-deutsch/search?language=englisch-deutsch&term=sache

https://de.langenscheidt.com/englisch-deutsch/search?language=englisch-deutsch&term=bild

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 5:34 AM

Jan Krohn:

Beloved:
I'm reading Stories With Intent and the German terms Sache and Bild are mentioned. I used Google Translate to arrive at an understanding of these terms, but I'm not satisfied with the result. Perhaps one of our German speaking forum members would care to elaborate on their meaning.

That could only be answered in context. Since English has more words than any other language, naturally, such general words as Bild and Sache have a wide variety of meanings in English.

The terms are used a few times Jan.  The third time is in a footnote:

1.

In most cases then a parable is an expanded analogy used to convince and persuade. As we will see, this is the way ancient Greeks also used the term, and it is sufficiently broad to cover the majority of the ways the Evangelists use the word. The logic of Jesus’ parables is proportional analogy. Corresponding to the German terms Sache and Bild, the English terms tenor and vehicle are used to explain how analogy functions. Tenor refers to the theme being compared, the item for which insight is sought, and vehicle refers to the pictorial image, the parable, the instrument by which insight is conveyed. An analogy explicitly or implicitly draws one or more points of resemblance. For example, a disciple is to God (tenor) as a slave is to a master (vehicle) with respect to unsurpassable obligation (point of resemblance). According to John Sider every parable labeled as a parable in the Gospels involves more than one point of resemblance—the exact opposite of Jülicher. Analogy by its very nature can easily become “allegorical.”

2.

No one rejected allegory and allegorizing more vehemently than Adolf Jülicher, a German NT scholar, and his influence is the second essential piece to understanding the history of parable interpretation. Jülicher’s two-volume work on the parables from the late nineteenth century has dominated parable studies even though it has never been translated. In his war against allegorizing Jülicher completely rejected both allegorizing and the genre of allegory. He denied that Jesus used allegory, which he defined as a series of related metaphors, or allegorical traits, where a point in a story “stands for” something else in reality. Although he knew the OT had allegories, he argued that allegory was too complex for Jesus, the simple Galilean preacher. Instead, Jesus’ stories were simple comparisons which were self-evident and did not need interpretation. Therefore, the allegorizing interpretations of the church were totally rejected. Further, where allegory or allegorical traits appear, such as in the parable of the Sower and the parable of the Wicked Tenants, the Evangelists are to blame. Because of the influence of Hellenistic Jewish views of parables, the Evangelists, in Jülicher’s opinion, misunderstood Jesus’ parables, assumed that parables have a concealing function (e.g., Mark 4:10–12), and turned them into dark and mysterious sayings. Jülicher thought parables are expanded similes, whereas allegories are expanded metaphors. He viewed simile and parable as literal speech which is easily understood, while metaphor and allegory are nonliteral, saying one thing and meaning another. He thought metaphor and allegory are indirect speech, hide, and need to be decoded, and he allowed no mingling of parable and allegory, no “mixed forms.” There could be no question of several points of comparison between image (Bild) and the object (Sache) portrayed, as happens with allegory, since Jesus’ parables could have only one point of contact (one tertium comparationis) between image and object. That one point is usually a general religious maxim. Jesus’ purpose was not to obscure, and therefore, his parables cannot be viewed as allegories. On this approach Jesus’ teaching was reduced to pious moralisms about God and the world. Further, by arguing that the Evangelists had altered Jesus’ parables, Jülicher opened the door for attempts to reconstruct the original versions of the parables.

3.

Parables do not necessarily stay imagistic but may be a mixture of image and the fact to which they refer. For example, in the parable of the Lion and her cubs in Ezek 19:2–9, the second lion cub becomes a man-eater who devastates cities (vv. 5–9), but lions do not devastate cities. In Luke 14:21 the poor, lame, crippled, and blind are not an image but the reality to which reference is made. This mixture of parabolic image (Bild) and reality (Sache) demonstrates that there should be no thought of separating the two.

Beloved the Modern Theological German Dictionary which is in Logos suggest the following meanings: (https://www.logos.com/product/166479/modern-theological-german-dictionary)

Bild (-er) (das), picture, image, figure, illustration, portrait, likeness, emblem, symbol. (Gen. 1:26)

Sache (-n) (die), thing, object, article, cause, action, case, subject, affair, business, event, fact, circumstance; (pl.) goods, clothes, etc. (Matt. 12:10)

These definitions appear to be consistent with what is said in the above paragraphs. Would you add anything to these definitions Jan to better explain their usage above?

Posts 2786
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 6:10 AM

This seems to be straightforward to me, and I'm actually a bit perplexed why one would need German to explain the meaning of a parable.

Simple example.

The "mustard seed" is the Bild (an image/picture).

The "Kingdom of God" is the Sache (a fact/item/object/article).

It's certainly in no way as mysterious as it looks at the first sight.

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Posts 2897
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 7:11 AM

doc:
Beloved the Modern Theological German Dictionary which is in Logos suggest the following meanings: (https://www.logos.com/product/166479/modern-theological-german-dictionary)

Thanks, doc for that resource recommendation and for citing the source in my absence. Jan your response was very enlightening and straightforward. Thank you. I look forward to more German language resources in Logos.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.2.3

Posts 694
Steve Maling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 10:57 AM

Beloved,

A German resource for which you can vote is Manton's Introduction to Theological German. Just follow this link: https://suggestbooks.uservoice.com/forums/308269-book-suggestions

Doc has already noted a German resource already in Logos, a Modern Theological German: A Reader and Dictionary. Here is the link to the Product Page: https://www.logos.com/product/33539/modern-theological-german-a-reader-and-dictionary

Shalom, shalolm, Steve

Posts 2897
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 1:20 PM

Steve Maling:
A German resource for which you can vote is Manton's Introduction to Theological German.

Thanks for the info, Steve. I've cast my votes.

https://suggestbooks.uservoice.com/forums/308269-book-suggestionshttps://suggestbooks.uservoice.com/forums/308269-book-suggestions/suggestions/35706001-introduction-to-theological-german 

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.2.3

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