Lexham Survey of Theology - feedback

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 10:06 AM

Francis:

Fr Devin Roza:
true-happiness-and-the-virtues

Sure Mattison is not a Stoic philosopher? Hmm

Mattison is a Thomistic theologian and philosopher.

Note that Catholic theology presupposes a profound rationality in creation (created by God, who is Logos), in such a way that faith and reason do not contradict each other, but complement one another (for more on this, cf. Fides et Ratio by John Paul II). Moral theology builds on ethical philosophy and they complement one another, as faith and reason do. Virtue, happiness, and grace all work together in the Catholic vision, and are all part of God's plan for us (e.g. Mk 10:17-31).

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 3:43 PM

Correct MJ.

I found innovative the proposal to tag Calvinism in the CalvOn, and then integrate it with TheOn. My dream would be to have all different group / traditions / denominations tagged and added to TheOn, then one can compare, and build own.

Thanks for the list.

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 3:53 PM

Thanks Fr. Devin.

I do have it, and started to read it. There is where I learned of the Object, motivation, circumstance framework to evaluate situations.

I did find some Moral theology videos in the web in Spanish, but I consider the Mobile ed or Verbum training a better platform, because it ties nicely with the resources I have.

For some reason seems to me that not many Catholics are fully cognizant of the Moral theology field. When Christian Discourse was operative, not many engaged with me in it.

The more knowledgeable that I found in CD were Anglicans, but they had little time to have a good discourse, and seemed that they had other pressing matters competing for their time.

I am just surprised that there seems to lack a guide to take you logically and sequentially into the topics, and with examples. Mobile Ed beats by far just plain textbooks in my opinion. 

Blessings.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 4:46 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
For some reason seems to me that not many Catholics are fully cognizant of the Moral theology field. When Christian Discourse was operative, not many engaged with me in it.

I don't believe that Christian Discourse would have had a representative group of Catholics.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2018 5:21 AM

MJ:

I interacted with some awesome ones. Really sharp in many areas, but for some reason Moral theology was not a topic mastered as others.

There is not even a Moral theology group in FL.

There was a time in which we were taking a course and discussing our views in a FL group. For some reason, a hypothesis was proposed suggesting that Jesus was responsible for His death. Like if He provoked authorities on purpose to bring about His death.

I disagreed. And I used a framework from moral theology to analyze the hypothesis, and found it wanting:

1 Object: Jesus deliberately causes His death.

I disagree with the definition of the situation as above. Jesus came to rescue us, He voluntarily came to die for us, but I do not think He caused it on purpose by challenging the religious authorities of HIs time.

2 Intention: Jesus came to witness what He had seen, experienced, heard, etc. in Heaven. He was all about truth. He came to show us what truth is (merciful God willing to rescue us, forgiving us and adopting us), not to rally trouble to cause HIs death. 

He came in all good will, and was blown by the fact that He was not received nor accepted. He said it: "If you were sons of Moses, you would be glad I am here"[paraphrase], so by not being glad He came, anyone with that attitude, was most likely not from Moses.

In stark contrast, children of Abraham, astounded Him with the Faith they had in HIm.

Paradoxical that when Jesus spoke of the truth, the so called "elect ones" could not bear it, while the gentiles were amazed, and willingly accepted the message and the messenger (relative to the original branch).

3 circumstances: my bet is that Jesus did not fully know the details of the plan God had. He probably knew He was going to die, but I think He was not clued in on the rejection of HIs own. Maybe that was part of HIs test: be able to stick with God and His plan, rather than with a group gone wrong.

At the end, true colors show. The first murderer was Cain, and his problem seems to be a spiritual allegiance to evil. So the true colors of the spiritual children of the evil one showed: the deeds of their spiritual father they wanted to do: kill, and all because their true colors were shown.

That Jesus deliberately caused His death by provoking the authorities is not a viable hypothesis in my view.

Jesus came to save what was lost. He came to show the way to God, He proved He was the truth, people not siding with Him are nothing but Tares, and Tares do what they do, they kill the Wheat.

Big difference. And question begs asking: are we tares or wheat, do we side with Jesus Christ (way, truth and life), or with something / someone else?

So I do think that Moral theology is very important:

1 True believers must go a radical moral change (metanoia), in small things and in big things (usually possible only through the action of the Holy Spirit).

2 We must analyze situations in a proper manner to be righteous discerners of the issues at hand, and come to the right conclusions.

3 We must strive to have rational system to decide, and with the aid of the Holy Spirit, conduct ourselves in a way becoming of our citizenship in the Kingdom of Light.

Blessings.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2018 12:18 PM

Hamilton, you are well aware the forums are not for theological discussions. I will not be baited.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2018 5:00 PM

MJ I am giving an example of a framework for analyzing situations.

I consider is an ok one and comes from Moral theology.

My objective is to eventually have a Verbum training or Mobille ed about Moral theology.

I see most theological discussions as parakeet believers arguing for what they have been indoctrinated in.

I am interested in tools that allow the individual believer to check all and retain what is good in light of the Scripture.

Systematic theology is all about the evaluation, development and communication of doctrine.

When someone proposes a theological construct, I am of the opinion that individual sheep should have tools to analyze what is being proposed to check Scriptures to see if it is so, but an enlarged conceptual framework is needed.

Moral theology offers important tools in my opinion. Critical thinking when analyzing doctrine is key, Noble synagogue Bereans knew it, and that event was recorded for our instruction, are we not to learn?

Kind regards.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 1:56 AM

Greetings Hamilton

Hamilton Ramos:
My objective is to eventually have a Verbum training or Mobille ed about Moral theology.

This is a legitimate and laudable aim. However your post above never mentions Logos, how it can be used, nor even a proposal about the 'nuts and bolts' of the way your aim could be implemented.

You might like to consider a rule of thumb being that as soon as you hint that you disagree with another theology in these forums the line is likely to have been crossed. There are plenty of web based places that theology can be argued about or proposed but these forums are not the ones.

Every customer, wise or deluded, is welcome to use the software to study the subjects they wish the aim is to make them welcome here and provide the tools that will give them the greatest opportunity to find the truth for themselves.

Pursuing the objective of having Logos provide the tools and resources to facilitate the study of Moral Theology might end up helping everyone. However telling folk what the outcome of that study should be is not appreciated here.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 3:58 AM

Mike Binks:

Greetings Hamilton

Hamilton Ramos:
My objective is to eventually have a Verbum training or Mobille ed about Moral theology.

This is a legitimate and laudable aim. However your post above never mentions Logos, how it can be used, nor even a proposal about the 'nuts and bolts' of the way your aim could be implemented.

You might like to consider a rule of thumb being that as soon as you hint that you disagree with another theology in these forums the line is likely to have been crossed. There are plenty of web based places that theology can be argued about or proposed but these forums are not the ones.

Every customer, wise or deluded, is welcome to use the software to study the subjects they wish the aim is to make them welcome here and provide the tools that will give them the greatest opportunity to find the truth for themselves.

Pursuing the objective of having Logos provide the tools and resources to facilitate the study of Moral Theology might end up helping everyone. However telling folk what the outcome of that study should be is not appreciated here.

Thanks Mike for your thoughtful response.

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

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Clearview | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 4:02 AM

Amen!

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 8:41 PM

If you were offended Mike Binks, I apologize, my intention was not to annoy anyone.

If one cannot show the usefulness for analysis of something, there may not be an appreciation of its potential.

I did not write to start polemics but to show a methodology. The original exercise was done in a Faithlife study. Maybe I should have put a link to it instead.

Anyone can do a similar analysis and come to a very different conclusion.

My interest is to have believers develop skills using tools that allow them to do more critical thinking of suggested constructs taking as base the Bible.

My understanding is that Logos wants to promote Bible study. It is important to have a conceptual framework so that suggested doctrine is analyzed from different angles in light of the Scripture.

Synagogue Bereans did it, we are to learn from them.

At no time I am saying I have the absolute truth down. A conjecture based on the scant evidence is the best we can aim for, and then we can check with the conclusions reached by others in different traditions.

I assume that Logos wants to promote critical thinking, and responsible study of the Bible to see if things are so.

Not all users are sophisticated phds, and many have no clue on how tools can be used. 

Check all, retain what is good, seems to be encouraged in the Bible.

If Verbum training or Mobile ed are not Logos, then I do not know what can be, and I clearly said that the interest was precisely that, and the part of moral theology that I see important was illustrated.

And Verbum training or Mobile ed is the context of the answer I was providing for MJ.

Kind regards

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 9:51 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
If you were offended Mike Binks, I apologize, my intention was not to annoy anyone

Hamilton 

I appreciate that you may not have been fully aware of the purpose of these forums and the restraint we place on ourselves in order to make everybody who wants to find out more about the software welcome here. 

As soon as you posit a theological line and then say you disagree with it you cross the line.

Quite a few folk arrive here thinking that because the software enables theological studies the forums are for discussing theology. They are not. The forums are for discussing the software and for how to use it to study theology.

It is not acceptable to say that you disagree with folk who believe that Jesus' prime purpose was to overturn traders tables!

It might be ok to ask if any of the resources in the Church Fathers support the idea.

Better would be asking how to construct a search to find instances where the Church Fathers dealt with trader's tables.Your long post above expresses disagreemeant with others beliefs and makes no mention of Logos and its use.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 10:28 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
And Verbum training or Mobile ed is the context of the answer I was providing for MJ.

I had just asked you to cease with the off-topic discussion. Please do not use me as an excuse. But to go off topic myself, may I suggest that you learn to use Prolog to analysis your thoughts from a propositional perspective as a starting point to verify your methodology? See Biblical Paradox and Coinductive Reasoning.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 6:44 AM

Yes Mike Binks:

I understand, and I try to not  start theological discussions here. I many times ask for reference to resources and searches.

What I was trying to show was that:

Object

Intention

circumstances

framework (found in Moral theology), allows me to better evaluate doctrinal constructs. The framework comes straight from a L8 resource that even was mentioned by Fr. Devin.

Frameworks like that would be great to be included in a Verbum training or Mobile ed. I would imagine there are more.

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 6:51 AM

MJ thanks for the link.

I am not using you as excuse of anything. I was trying to simply show that Moral theology has a lot to offer to any believer in my view.

One of the referents that I follow as far as logical / rational methods is you. 

You may freely express if you think the method is wrongly applied, and due to that possibility is that I would like to see a training module to aid in the proper use of tools offered by the different traditions (Catholics in this case).

My intention was not to attack you, nor your tradition, but to illustrate how tools may help analysis that can also extend to decision making.

I expressed that I noticed not many catholics that I interact with seem very familiar with moral theology and its processes. I was just wondering why and by bouncing off ideas was expecting to get input as to why could that be.

You were clear to tell me you are more of a liturgist. I respect that, and looked up more about it, I wondered what the relation between liturgies and moral theology is, as I am not clear on how different areas relate in the particular traditions those areas were developed.

My apologies if you felt I was using you as an excuse.

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 2:52 AM

To anyone interested:

Use L8 to analyze Matthew 21:33 - 45, and see what are the intentions of the different characters in the parable. It is not too hard to see who is who.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 13 2018 5:33 PM

Let's get back on topic:

SineNomine:
...as the OP, please let me briefly re-iterate my actual request, which seems to have gotten lost (repeatedly) in this thread.

[Dear Faithlife,] Please indicate in the LST itself, or at least in the electronic description of it visible in the Library, that LST is Protestant.

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 15 2018 3:28 AM

SineNomine:

When you say protestant, do you mean evangelical,  born again, non-charismatic?

 To me that is a paradox in itself, how can you be born again and deny the higher gifts of the Spirit.

https://religioninpublic.blog/2017/03/22/measurement-error-is-sin/

https://phys.org/news/2014-06-religious-affiliation-social-class.html

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2008/05/educational-levels-denomination/#.W-1UzC-ZPHc

Can Biblical Liberalism be considered protestant? Is not one of the primary tenets of protestantism Ad Fontes?

What surprises me of Biblical Liberals is that many times they allegorize to match their particular theological constructs, and take literal that which supports the same.

I do not think you can enthrone man's reason above God's revelation and still say you are truly protestant.

Can you specify more what do you mean by protestant.

https://www.christianity.com/church/denominations/what-does-the-term-evangelical-really-mean-here-are-10-things-to-know.html

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 15 2018 5:02 AM

Thanks Fr. Devin, nice article.

Without trying to violate guidelines I think Logos staff is trying to do a reasonable effort to accommodate varying views from inside the Christian envelope.

From: https://www.christianity.com/church/denominations/what-does-the-term-evangelical-really-mean-here-are-10-things-to-know.html

"But even before the 18th century, Protestant reformers used the word to describe their faith. In the 18th century, “evangelicalism” largely described Christians who emphasized

a personal relationship with God,

the practice of being born again, and

a call to spread God’s message worldwide."

[Format changed to allow clarity].

Is LST conductive to a personal relationship with God? definitively, God's attributes, works, grace, love for us, all important topics are there. Now details of how to get there are only indirectly touched upon according to the Library one owns and the denomination it belongs to.

So Catholics may engage in contemplative prayer, Biblicist may do heavy meditation on key Bible verses.

Theology inclined persons may identify the conditions that allows God's presence to manifest: Read / listen, understand, repent, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, baptize as per Acts 2:38, receive the Holy Spirt (born again), walk humbly with God doing as He indicates to complete the good deeds prepared for you before the foundation of the World, and that may include help in or look for the lost.

The above is none but complying with the responsibility of doing what the New Covenant requires.

As far as being born again, there are plenty of resources about that, it is not forced on anyone, but it is clear from Jesus' explanation that is needed to be born again in order to enter the Kingdom.

I have no doubt that Catholics know that a change (metanoia) needs to happen to the inner nature of men before they can be considered citizens of Heaven.

Maybe they focus more on love and mercy works and sacraments (both which we are responsible to do), the difference with the protestants is that grace and enabling power from the Holy Spirit is seen as the underlying cause of such change, as being born in a fallen nature, makes us natural enemies of God unable to seek Him or please Him.

Spread the message: Logos encourages to do that, and many resources are offered. The LST gives the basics, then you can explore your own traditions particular experiences and methods.

Some think that all religious endeavors at their root is about authority: We all agree in the objectives, the problem starts when we need to define how to obtain those objectives, by which methods.

In my opinion regardless of where authority is assigned, God tells me in the Bible that at the end, me as individual believer need to check the fruits, and then I can tell which way should I go.

Are the efforts of the tradition / group geared toward making members, or outreach disciples?

As David Mulder puts it:

So yes it would be great to have more knowledgeable persons in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, give more details to the LST, maybe as an addenda, so that more topics can be explored, but at the end, we must all check ourselves and our inner intentions, are we trying to make church members or outreach disciples?

In my view, God wants us to make disciples that advance His cause, HIs agenda, His salvation, not anybody else's.

By the fruit we will know who is who.

Is L8 trying to make outreach disciples? in my view, yes even if LST is perceived as particular branch of protestantism.

And from the Wiki article on protestantism:

"Biblical Christianity" focused on a deep study of the Bible is characteristic of most Protestants as opposed to "Church Christianity", focused on performing rituals and good works, represented by Catholic and Orthodox traditions. However Quakers and Pentecostalists, emphasize the Holy Spirit and personal closeness to God"

I would be more than happy to have a LST or equivalent that had the best all 3 thrusts above:

Deep Bible study, legit rituals and good works (to walk worthy of the calling), and the guidance of it all by the Holy Spirit.

Maybe an ecumenical version of LST would accomplish that, but coordination among the parts involved would be needed.

Blessings.

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