Missing Books from Chinese Bronze

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Posts 1289
PL | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Oct 31 2018 9:47 AM

Hi Philip,

I purchased Chinese Bronze yesterday (among other Logos 8 packages). Today I discovered quite a number of books missing from my Logos 8 library (Windows 10), e.g.

- 摩根解經書

- 愛上禱告會

- 古代註解(應該新下載的)

I have attached my Library export file in Excel format. Can you please check for me what else from Chinese Bronze are missing from my Library and why?

(The Chinese package comparison page on the website does not have asterisks on any resources to indicate they may be available later.)

Thanks,

Peter

4532.Logos 8 Library.xlsx

Posts 247
LogosEmployee
Philip Peng | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 11:30 AM

PL:

Hi Philip,

I purchased Chinese Bronze yesterday (among other Logos 8 packages). Today I discovered quite a number of books missing from my Logos 8 library (Windows 10), e.g.

- 摩根解經書

- 愛上禱告會

- 古代註解(應該新下載的)

I have attached my Library export file in Excel format. Can you please check for me what else from Chinese Bronze are missing from my Library and why?

(The Chinese package comparison page on the website does not have asterisks on any resources to indicate they may be available later.)

Thanks,

Peter

4532.Logos 8 Library.xlsx

Hi, Peter,

Thank you for your post and we are sorry for the inconvenience this caused you.  We encountered some delays on our book production process and therefore some Chinese titles are not ready to ship them in time before the launch.  We are doing our best to deliver these missing books in the next few weeks and they will be automatically added to your library once they are ready.  The books missing for the Logos 8 Chinese Bronze package are:

當代聖靈工作 (繁體) 

真理的尋索--基督教是否可信(繁體)

古代基督信仰聖經註釋: 創世記1-11章

古代基督信仰聖經註釋: 創世記12-50章

古代基督信仰聖經註釋: 出埃及記/利未記/民數記/申命記

中文普通話和合本有聲聖經

禱告的學校 (繁體)

中文新標點和合本研讀本聖經(神版)—創世記

教牧諮商輔導辭典(繁體) 

四福音書(繁體):共同譯本

如何讀箴言 (繁體)

愛上禱告會(繁體)

竭誠為主(經典版)

摩根解经丛卷:罗马书(简体)

聖經的默示 (繁體)

圣经的默示 (简体)

認識聖經文學 (繁體) 

摩根解经丛卷:何西阿书(简体)

摩根解经丛卷:诗篇(简体)

堅實的信仰:基督教護教學堂

真道初階 (繁體)

真道初阶 (简体)

認識福音派信仰 (繁體) 

Once again, sorry for this delay. 

Best regards,

Philip

Posts 1289
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 11:52 AM

Wow, that's 23 books missing! 

23 out of a total of 122 books in Chinese Bronze, that's almost 20% missing!

Two questions:

- Is there a good explanation why this was not communicated ahead of time (at time of purchase)?

- When will your website be updated with accurate non-availability of package content (all the packages, not just Chinese packages)?

After multiple incidents like this, it's really hard to trust Faithlife with honesty, transparency, and accuracy. 

Now I have to triple check what else is missing from my other packages! This is really disappointing because it's not the first time that something like this was not clearly communicated.

Peter

Posts 603
LogosEmployee
Thomas Reiter (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 12:17 PM

PL:

Wow, that's 23 books missing! 

23 out of a total of 122 books in Chinese Bronze, that's almost 20% missing!

Two questions:

- Is there a good explanation why this was not communicated ahead of time (at time of purchase)?

- When will your website be updated with accurate non-availability of package content (all the packages, not just Chinese packages)?

After multiple incidents like this, it's really hard to trust Faithlife with honesty, transparency, and accuracy. 

Now I have to triple check what else is missing from my other packages! This is really disappointing because it's not the first time that something like this was not clearly communicated.

Peter

Hi PL,

We are sorry about this delay and are trying to call it out on the base package PDPs (See the attached screenshot).
 

We discovered after launch that the new base package template fails to properly display the resources missing indicator on the Chinese website and we are working on remedying the situation. We are sorry for this inconvenience and I have asked Philip to create a more detailed post about missing resources and expected delivery timelines.

One thing I want to stress is that of course all of these books will be delivered, some as early as next week. We are just as frustrated with some of these delays, but we are still increasing our capacity and speed on Chinese resource production. Some of the resources we added with Logos 8 have been much more technical than the resources we have had before, which has added to some of the delays.

In regards to English resources this percentage is much lower and logos.com does support the aforementioned functionality. If you e-mail me directly (or message me on Faithlife), I am more than willing to collect that list for you directly as well.

Thomas

Posts 1289
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 1:20 PM

Thank you for your quick response and action, Thomas. I have PM'ed you thru this forum my other packages purchased.

On the positive side, I briefly looked at a few of the Chinese resources downloaded as part of the Bronze package, and their quality seemed good.

Thanks and please keep up the quality and good work. Hopefully other purchasers are better informed now.

Peter

Posts 1289
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 1:26 PM

This warning should be added to more pages, especially the Compare Packages page, which I spent most of my time comparing and shopping.

Posts 603
LogosEmployee
Thomas Reiter (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 3:14 PM

PL:

This warning should be added to more pages, especially the Compare Packages page, which I spent most of my time comparing and shopping.

I think this is a really good idea, I am going to have the team look into finding a spot there.

Thank you!

Posts 1289
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 8:03 AM

Hi Philip and Thomas,

Any update on these 23 missing books?

Also, any progress on a longer-term fix to the display issue (of non-available books being sold as part of a package) on the Chinese Logos site?

(Thomas -- I actually don't see the warning/notice/disclaimer you were going to add to the website anywhere on the Chinese site... not on the Compare Base Packages Overview NOR the Compare Books pages.)

Hoping for better accountability from this company after another (repeat) debacle that borders on suspicions of dishonesty and misrepresentation in advertising and marketing (once again)... The money was charged 2 weeks ago.

Also, what about other books missing from the higher packages? At a quick glance, the Silver and Gold packages have at least the following books that are still in Pre-Pubs Gathering Interest... How can they be listed as part of base packages with no asterisk or indication at all? How can we trust Logos for what you represent and advertise on your website anymore? How can we alert Bob of these continued instances of lack of integrity by any standards (bordering on illegal false advertising)?

  • 擱淺的日子—約伯記註釋 (繁體) Days of Being Stranded: A Commentary on the Book of Job (Traditional Chinese)
  • 耶穌的群體—使徒行傳新視野 (繁體) The Jesus Community: New Perspective on Acts (Traditional Chinese)
  • 獅子坑裡的職場戰士—但以理書註釋 (繁體) The Warrior in the Lions’ Den: A Commentary on the Book of Daniel (Traditional Chinese)
  • 其實你不懂我的心-約拿書註釋 You Don’t Know My Heart-Commentary on Book of Jonah

Thanks,

Peter

Posts 2662
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 9:33 AM

PL:
Also, what about other books missing from the higher packages? At a quick glance, the Silver and Gold packages have at least the following books that are still in Pre-Pubs Gathering Interest... How can they be listed as part of base packages with no asterisk or indication at all? How can we trust Logos for what you represent and advertise on your website anymore? How can we alert Bob of these continued instances of lack of integrity by any standards (bordering on illegal false advertising)?

Hi Peter,

Although this may not have been communicated well, FL has been arranging for pre-pub books to get into the hands of customers much sooner than if everyone had to wait for them to be fully funded.

  • This is a much better arrangement for customers than having to wait for those books to be funded (or risk that they would be cancelled due to lack of interest).
  • In addition, we are paying far less for these pre-pubs in base packages (due to the 90% base package savings, plus the introductory discounts), rather than buying them separately through pre-pub. How often do we get pre-pubs at over 90% off, rather than 40% off?

I'm grateful that FL has arranged for us to save even more on those pre-pubs, as well as to get them to us sooner than usual.

You are right that an asterisk should be displayed for resources which aren't immediately available for download, but I don't believe this was an intentional oversight designed to mislead anyone. FL has been (grateful, apologetic, and) responsive in acknowledging and correcting mistakes on the product pages.

I think FL has done a remarkable job of putting together these L8 base packages, and rolling out so many changes on the web site for this L8 launch.

I hope you enjoy your purchase(s), and find the new features, tools, and resources to be a blessing, as you study God's word.

Posts 1289
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 10:11 AM

Thank you, Petah, for your input. 

I've received offline communication from Bob. I also gave him suggestions for process changes to improve the communication and expectation management of this type of delayed-delivery situation going forward.

Thanks,

Peter

Posts 247
LogosEmployee
Philip Peng | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 11:14 AM

PL:

Also, what about other books missing from the higher packages? At a quick glance, the Silver and Gold packages have at least the following books that are still in Pre-Pubs Gathering Interest... How can they be listed as part of base packages with no asterisk or indication at all? How can we trust Logos for what you represent and advertise on your website anymore? How can we alert Bob of these continued instances of lack of integrity by any standards (bordering on illegal false advertising)?

  • 擱淺的日子—約伯記註釋 (繁體) Days of Being Stranded: A Commentary on the Book of Job (Traditional Chinese)
  • 耶穌的群體—使徒行傳新視野 (繁體) The Jesus Community: New Perspective on Acts (Traditional Chinese)
  • 獅子坑裡的職場戰士—但以理書註釋 (繁體) The Warrior in the Lions’ Den: A Commentary on the Book of Daniel (Traditional Chinese)
  • 其實你不懂我的心-約拿書註釋 You Don’t Know My Heart-Commentary on Book of Jonah

Thanks,

Peter

Hi, Peter,

The 4 books you listed above will be delivered automatically to users who buy the packages once we finish the productions (We have indicated clearly in our base package pages).  Therefore, we list them in the packages and have indicated that they are still in production due to delay.  That is why these 4 books are still in Pre-pub gathering interests so other user who wish not to purchase base packages can order them as stand-alone book.  Once these books are published (which will be within few weeks), they will be changed to live for people to purchase them right away.  I hope this explains your concerns.

Once again, we apologize for causing you feel this way but we are not trying to be lack of integrity or post false advertisements to our users.  I hope you will understand.  Thank you.

Best regards,

Philip

Posts 1289
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 1:29 PM

1) I now see the disclaimer and the delayed products listed on the Chinese Silver and Chinese Gold product pages.

2) However, there is absolutely no indication of those missing resources on the two package comparison pages:

3) Please also check the Simplified Chinese pages accordingly.

4) Lastly, when I click on the Chinese Starter or Chinese Bronze package pages (I already own these packages), I get a 500 internal server error:

500: 內部伺服器發生錯誤

很抱歉… 不是您的問題。 是我們的問題。 我們已經知道此問題,並會儘快地解決此問題。 在當前您可以
Posts 603
LogosEmployee
Thomas Reiter (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 1:55 PM

Hi Peter,

I am sorry you feel like we have mislead you in this situation, but I would argue we have done our best to remedy the issue within the constraints of what the website is capable of doing.

First, each base package product page now contains two prominent "call-outs" that highlight that certain resources are still in production (see attached screenshots)

and

In addition, we have been working on the asterisk indicators on the backend, which should ship to the website today, barring any unforeseen issues.

I am still awaiting confirmation as to whether that will also affect comparison pages, but what we did a while ago already was to redirect the link that allowed people to purchase without going to the product page to instead send people to the product page. Unless they are actively creating their own purchase link, customers should not be able to purchase (on the website) without getting past this call-out.

Posts 603
LogosEmployee
Thomas Reiter (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 2:03 PM

While we would have all preferred to have all resources finished and completed on ship date, that was simply not possible due to a variety of different factors, both internally and externally. You have roughly fifteen independent entities that we rely on getting the materials from and to, and as you can imagine that is comparable to herding cats.

Before launching these base packages we had a number of conversations with former and potential customers as to what their preference would be in regards to these resources(pull them and reduce the value of the package vs. keep them included and deliver as they become available) and the overwhelming majority was very strongly in favour of including the resources, as that presented the best price/value proposition to them. We are sorry you feel different about this subject and are obviously more than willing to refund this purchase to you, if you would prefer to do so at this point in time.

Posts 603
LogosEmployee
Thomas Reiter (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 2:04 PM

PL:
3) Please also check the Simplified Chinese pages accordingly.

Unless I am mistaken, this should already all be addressed as well.

PL:
4) Lastly, when I click on the Chinese Starter or Chinese Bronze package pages (I already own these packages), I get a 500 internal server error:

I am having trouble recreating the issue, but we will do some more investigating on this.

Posts 1289
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 2:35 PM

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for your responses and assistance.

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not questioning the decision to include not-yet-ready resources in the packages. As Petah pointed out, this allows us to acquire them at a much lower price. For that, I thank you. If I were polled about this decision, I probably would also recommend the same as your other polled customers.

What I'm reacting to is twofold:

1) The decision to put out a package with 20% delayed content (imagine buying a house or car or any other product where 1/5 of it is not yet ready); and

2) At launch time, customers were not notified about this fact, and there was no notification or communication to this fact after launch until this customer discovered the missing content quite by accident.

I hope you don't feel that I'm overreacting to this situation. I understand electronic publishing is difficult and challenging, as you pointed out. I managed a significant electronic publishing IT project myself some years ago, so I understand.

All I'm trying to do is to make sure no other customers would have to go through the surprise I went through when I made the above discoveries by accident. 

You're talking about "Chinese Christians who are tech-savvy enough and Word-hungry enough who have the financial means to purchase and own a top-end electronic Bible study library." That's not a huge community. I want every one of your customers to have a positive, happy experience.

I want you to succeed. When you succeed, we all thrive and benefit.

Thank you.

Peter

Posts 603
LogosEmployee
Thomas Reiter (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 6:10 PM

Thank you so much Peter,

I know that your intent is just and that it is simply based on wanting this to be as perfect as possible. What you have to understand is that our Chinese team is still very small, and Philip has been putting in more than his share of hours.

PL:
2) At launch time, customers were not notified about this fact, and there was no notification or communication to this fact after launch until this customer discovered the missing content quite by accident.

While I agree that the call-outs could have already been more detailed to start, I do want to point out that a call-out was present on the product page from the moment the product launched, so this was always present. For a customer like you who did his investigation on the compare page and then bought from a sales rep, this is obviously only marginally helpful, but all web based purchases, which is a large majority(read: almost all) of our Chinese sales, were made aware of this limitation. I do agree that it was important to make it even more obvious, which is why I asked Philip to expand and even add a second call-out to the page. Over the last ten days we even implemented the 'resources still in development' functionality on our Chinese site (which I just checked has now shipped - some of this data, especially on the feature set side is incorrect and will need to be updated still)

PL:
1) The decision to put out a package with 20% delayed content (imagine buying a house or car or any other product where 1/5 of it is not yet ready)

(As an aside - as somebody that just recently moved, I would have been ecstatic with 20%)

In all seriousness, of course we are unhappy with this and would have loved to avoid it, but were reaffirmed by the people we interacted with, especially considering that a large contingent of this content will be released over the coming weeks. We actually already shipped seven resources today (not all of them part of Bronze), with another batch coming either late this week, or early next week.  

We also want every single one of our customers to have a positive experience and we firmly believe that including these was the right choice. In retrospect it might have been best for Philip to include the full disclaimer from the get go, but I want you to believe that it was not an intent to deceive, as much as simply a need to get some sleep after working 100+ hours the previous week. Philip did a ton of work to pull this off and certain things had to be pushed back just a bit. In retrospect it probably would have been best to include the expanded call-out at a higher priority, and for that we apologize.

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