I'm calling it a bug: Propositional outline visual filter

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Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Nov 7 2018 6:03 PM

In an attempt to be open-minded, I was trying some of the built-in workflows. (So far, not impressed: the "Expository Sermon Preparation" workflow puts identifying the sermon's main theme before studying the passage. One of the definitions of an expository sermon is "The point of the passage is the point of the sermon.") Anyway...

Another workflow has a step to use the Propositional Outline visual filter. I'm not sure I've used that before, so I turn it on. What happens? It gets turned on for every open Bible that I have (at least if they have an RI). So now I can't even go to one of those Bibles to read it normally.

Why, oh why, oh why, oh why - after all these years - does Logos think that a change I make to the view of one resource in one panel should be applied to all equivalent resources in all panels?

I'm hoping that can be corrected. Until then, it's not a usable feature.

My $.02 ...

Donnie

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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 6:37 PM

I agree that it would be nice to have resource setting (propositional outlines, bible text settings, visual filters, etc) apply only to the individual occurrence of a resource, rather than all occurrences of that resource.

However, if I understand what you're seeing is that setting the ESV to show Propositional Outlines and then opening an NASB, results in the NASB showing the Propositional Outlines as well.

Is that what you are seeing? If so, I am not sure why. That is not my experience.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2018 7:45 PM

Donnie Hale:
Another workflow has a step to use the Propositional Outline visual filter. I'm not sure I've used that before, so I turn it on. What happens? It gets turned on for every open Bible that I have (at least if they have an RI).

Visual Filter menu has a right hand side option for Propositional Outlines to "Show in all appropriate resources" OR "Do not show in any resources"

Personally enable Propositional outlines by checking box on left side (or unchecking to disable).

Keep Smiling Smile

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Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 5:15 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Personally enable Propositional outlines by checking box on left side (or unchecking to disable).

That doesn't seem to be a complete sentence, so I'm not sure what you are saying.

I saw those (almost completely undiscoverable) menu options. Based on their verbiage, neither would seem to address the behavior I saw. "Show in all appropriate resources" is apparently what happened - every already-open Bible with RI applied the visual filter. "Do now show in any resources" implies that the visual filter won't be applied even in the resource I'm interacting with at that time.

I want: "Show only in this resource."

Thanks,

Donnie

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 6:00 AM

Donnie Hale:
I want: "Show only in this resource."

+1 Yes for addition to right hand drop down list.

Donnie Hale:
"Show in all appropriate resources" is apparently what happened - every already-open Bible with RI applied the visual filter. "Do now show in any resources" implies that the visual filter won't be applied even in the resource I'm interacting with at that time.

Concur with implication. Two choices:

  • Click "Do not show in any resource" to disable Propositional Outline in all resources
  • Use Visual Filter menu to uncheck Propositional Outline when not desired in each resource

Donnie Hale:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Personally enable Propositional outlines by checking box on left side (or unchecking to disable).

That doesn't seem to be a complete sentence, so I'm not sure what you are saying.

Visual Filter drop down has check boxes showing what is enabled (checked) OR disabled (unchecked). Now wondering if a right click on Proposition Outline line (pop-up "Show ..." OR "Do not show ..." ) was followed by left click of "Show ...".  Right click boundary starts at box while extending to end of the line. Perhaps Right Click boundary should be moved a bit to the right so right click on box does nothing.

FYI: one of my quirks is avoiding first person singular pronoun due to "I" trouble in Isaiah 14:12-14

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David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 8:46 AM

Donnie Hale:
the "Expository Sermon Preparation" workflow puts identifying the sermon's main theme before studying the passage.

Does not the ESP workflow have

1.3 Read your Passage Several Times

1.4 Identify POSSIBLE themes

then later (after steps 2-6) it revisits and refines the working assumptions from 1.5 as step 7

I concur with KS4J that an option for "select only THIS resource" would be helpful.

I have used Propositional Outline visual filter for quite some time only in one tab. in my sermon prep I have one tab for my preferred preaching text (ESV in my case) with a visual filter that highlights only conjunctions and verbs. a 2nd tab with a formal translation (NASB or LEB) with visual filters enabled that expose word-level observations (Louw-nida categories) and a 3rd tab that has a dynamic equivalent (switch between CSB or NIV) with VF for propositional outline and Discourse features turned on to get a 30,000 foot flyover view of the text. While all 3 of these tabs have Reverse Interlinear translations, each tab has different VF turned on for different perspectives.

I do find it interesting that the Expository Sermon Prep and Passage Exegesis workflows are significantly different in the order of tasks. I am working on a custom workflow that reconciles the order of these two and adds a dabble into Textual Criticism by referring to https://www.logos.com/product/4468/the-net-bible TC notes, https://www.logos.com/product/27493/lexham-bible-guides-pauls-letters-collection and https://www.logos.com/product/166739/exegetical-summaries-series. I realize these may come up in "consult commentaries" step, but I think it is important to establish the text earlier in the process.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 1886
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 4:35 PM

Thanks again for the reply. I can add some clarification to what I'm seeing.

If I enable the PO filter in my ESV, it enables it for every open ESV. As it happens, in another main window (on another monitor, not that that matters), I have 2 "multiple resource" panels open, each with the ESV as their main (parent? driving?) resource. So when I enabled the filter for the ESV in a different panel/tab, it enabled it for the two parent ESVs in the multiple resource panels. And because there's only one visual filter setting for all of a multiple resource panel, the filter was enabled for all other RI Bibles in the multiple resource panels. (whew - hopefully that makes sense)

I can confirm that enabling it in the ESV did not enable it in an NASB or an NLT that were not part of the multiple resource panels. So that confirms what others have stated. I can also confirm that the two options ("Show..." / "Do not show...") behaved as expected.

As I see it, then, there are two problems:

1) The long-standing problem of a VF in one instance of a resource controlling the behavior / appearance of every instance of that resource.

2) That a VF setting for the parent resource of a multiple resource panel affects every other resource open in the panel.

It's really about time that #1 is fixed. Be great to see #2 addressed as well.

Thanks for the replies from forum folks. Any thoughts in this, FL?

Donnie

Posts 1886
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 4:38 PM

David Thomas:

Does not the ESP workflow have

1.3 Read your Passage Several Times

1.4 Identify POSSIBLE themes

then later (after steps 2-6) it revisits and refines the working assumptions from 1.5 as step 7

Step 1.5 - Establish the Sermon's Main Idea

My argument is that you don't know the point of the passage until much later in the exegesis (though often before it's totally complete). Step 7 is great as far as it goes, but doesn't correct the bigger issue (IMO).

Donnie

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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 4:42 PM

Thanks Donnie for the clarification.

I don't use the multiple resource panel very often, so I'm really indifferent regarding #2. I agree that #1 would be very beneficial and make a lot of sense. I am just not sure how that would be done under the hood. I guess that's why I'm a pastor and not a programmerHuh?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 4:58 PM

Fredc:
I guess that's why I'm a pastor and not a programmerHuh?

At least you're in a similar profession - where everyone is a critic without any regard to limiting parameters.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1886
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 5:02 PM

Fredc:
I don't use the multiple resource panel very often

I think multiple resource is my most-used new feature out of all new features since v6. I used to look at people who used Bibleworks and Accordance with envy because they had that kind of a view as their default working view. It's the main way I do passage comparison. Love it! :)

Oh, and I've been a programmer for 30+ years. I've only been a pastor for 5+.

Thanks for replying to the thread.

Donnie

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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 5:47 PM

MJ. Smith:

Fredc:
I guess that's why I'm a pastor and not a programmerHuh?

At least you're in a similar profession - where everyone is a critic without any regard to limiting parameters.Wink

Smile

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 9:06 PM

Donnie Hale:
If I enable the PO filter in my ESV, it enables it for every open ESV.

Workaround is using Multiview where secondary Bible(s) inherit Visual Filter settings, including Propositional Outline (PO), from primary Bible:

Screen shot shows PO enabled in Lexham English Bible (LEB) with Multiview having English Standard Version (ESV) as primary with PO disabled, which is inherited by LEB. Hence, LEB is open twice with different PO display.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2018 6:12 AM

Big SmileBig Smile

MJ. Smith:

Fredc:
I guess that's why I'm a pastor and not a programmerHuh?

At least you're in a similar profession - where everyone is a critic without any regard to limiting parameters.Wink

sometimes, MJ, you just crack me up! 

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 1802
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2018 11:10 AM

Donnie Hale:
1) The long-standing problem of a VF in one instance of a resource controlling the behavior / appearance of every instance of that resource.

Thanks for clarifying! Now I understand that you and I have a similar point of discomfort. I also have 2 ESV panels - one in a linkset and a separate (much smaller) where I can quickly lookup a reference. This much smaller panel is bad enough if too many rows of the RI panel are selected, but the indentation of PO would render that panel totally useless.

You and I are in agreement that it would be helpful to have separate behaviors for multiple panels of the same resource.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

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