Page 1 of 1 (20 items)
This post has 19 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 115
Robert Kelbe | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jan 29 2019 12:45 PM

I finally bought Logos, and I wanted to give some initial impressions, suggestions, and possible bugs.

I decided to go with Logos over Accordance because of what I perceived to be a better user interface, a larger library, and (in my opinion) a higher probability of being there in the future. First, I am very happy with it overall. I am running a Microsoft Surface Pro 4, and it seems to be quick enough to be usable. I love all the detail that went in to so many different functions and features. I am only just getting started. 

Here are a few things I noticed as a first-time user:

Pen/ Touch Compatibility
  • These comments also posted on https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-8/suggestions/619605-focus-on-tablet-and-touchscreen-features:
  • Handwriting input panel doesn't work in notes (but does in prayer lists)
  • Dragging does not select text in prayer lists (but does in notes)
  • In home screen, dragging selects rather than scrolls
  • In a Bible, dragging scrolls rather than selecting texts
  • In Program Settings, dragging neither scrolls nor selects texts, and if you drag the slider bar, the page scrolls in reverse of how it scrolls if you grab the same slider bar with the mouse! You really have to try this one to believe it.
  • A word to the developers - with touch, dragging up/down should scroll, whereas dragging left/right should select text. That works flawlessly in TheWord Bible software.
Bible search
  • It is impossible to easily add verses from a Bible search to a verse list, or copy into a sermon.
  • Text should be selectable so you can copy and paste it directly from the search results.
  • I know it is possible to drag verses to a passage list. It should be possible to Ctrl/Shift select verses to select multiple verse to drag to a passage list.
Word Study
  • Issue when I search for marvelous then click the Hebrew “to do something wonderful...” - I get duplicate results (Isaiah 29:14 is listed twice, as is Zec 8:6). Is that supposed to happen?
New Testament Use of the Old Testament
  • There seems to be a bug where the Bible translations do not match the the chosen Bible translation. It opens with different versions for “New Testament” and “Source”. After that it is spotty. If I click ESV, nothing changes. If I then click CSB, only “New Testament” changes to CSB. If I then select LEB, the “New Testament” remains CSB and the “Source” changes to NRSV. After a while it seems to start working as expected.
Morphology Charts
  • Make it easier to change Bible translation (preferably, make this consistent across tools)
Timeline
  • Is it possible to overlay different timelines? Some people estimate the date of creation differently, and its difficult to know what to trust when some dates are off. For example, a timeline for the LXX vs the Masoretic text.
Sermon editor
  • Why does it not show Bible links when hovering over them? It seems to have automatically detected them? I can’t even click on them to get them to open up in a new window.
  • Inconsistent behavior pasting Scripture into the sermon editor. Copy pasting from a Bible makes a single block that you can’t trim or edit (underline, for example) later. Adding to a verse list and then copying, and pasting into the sermon editor does let you trim or edit it later. There should be an easy way to copy editable text directly from the Bible, without using the copy Bible verses tool. You should be able to select the text in the Bible, and choose in the popup to copy Bible verses in whatever format.
  • Sermon editor is unable to select and drag text (standard text editor feature).
Missing functionality
  • I really miss the clipboard detection feature in theWord, which automatically detected copied verses and displayed them in a tooltip. I could read a pdf and easily look up the verse references in any translation without switching programs and making a new verse list from the clipboard.
Posts 4768
RIP
Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 1:11 PM

Robert Kelbe:
Pen/ Touch Compatibility

This is something a number of users have talked about.

Robert Kelbe:
It is impossible to easily add verses from a Bible search to a verse list, or copy into a sermon.

The the Search panel menu (the three dots at the top right) select "Save as Passage List"

Robert Kelbe:
ssue when I search for marvelous then click the Hebrew “to do something wonderful...” - I get duplicate results (Isaiah 29:14 is listed twice, as is Zec 8:6). Is that supposed to happen?

The lemma occurs twice in each of those verses

Posts 27926
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 1:31 PM

Robert Kelbe:
Bible search

  • It is impossible to easily add verses from a Bible search to a verse list, or copy into a sermon.
  • Text should be selectable so you can copy and paste it directly from the search results.
  • I know it is possible to drag verses to a passage list. It should be possible to Ctrl/Shift select verses to select multiple verse to drag to a passage list.

From a Bible Search, you can click the panel menu (three vertical dots) and choose "Save as Passage List".

From a Passage List, you can choose Add then ...from another Passage List (created from another Bible Search).  Alternatively, Ctrl/Shift select verses in one List and drag them to another List. As that moves the selected verses, just use copy/paste from the right-click menu.

You can also select a portion of text (with bible verses) in a resource and choose Add then ...selected text.

Robert Kelbe:
Word Study

  • Issue when I search for marvelous then click the Hebrew “to do something wonderful...” - I get duplicate results (Isaiah 29:14 is listed twice, as is Zec 8:6). Is that supposed to happen?

With ESV, only Zech 8.6 is repeated, possibly because it occurs twice in the verse. The lemma in Is 29:14 is twice translated "wonderful", so that explains why the verse is missing with ESV.

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 27926
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 2:20 PM

Robert Kelbe:
New Testament Use of the Old Testament

  • There seems to be a bug where the Bible translations do not match the the chosen Bible translation. It opens with different versions for “New Testament” and “Source”. After that it is spotty. If I click ESV, nothing changes. If I then click CSB, only “New Testament” changes to CSB. If I then select LEB, the “New Testament” remains CSB and the “Source” changes to NRSV. After a while it seems to start working as expected.

It is buggy. For each bug you have listed here, create a separate thread with the title prefaced by Bug:

Robert Kelbe:
Morphology Charts

  • Make it easier to change Bible translation (preferably, make this consistent across tools)

Your preferred bible is used by many features, so I assume you know how to Prioritize resources?

Robert Kelbe:
Missing functionality

  • I really miss the clipboard detection feature in theWord, which automatically detected copied verses and displayed them in a tooltip. I could read a pdf and easily look up the verse references in any translation without switching programs and making a new verse list from the clipboard.

You would have to explain that in more detail, but if you have an alternative method in Logos then accept that as "different" to the way other programs work.

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 737
Steve Maling | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 3:13 PM

By the way, Robert, welcome to the Fora. And thank you for detailing your first impressions.

Posts 27926
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 5:28 PM

Robert Kelbe:
Timeline

  • Is it possible to overlay different timelines? Some people estimate the date of creation differently, and its difficult to know what to trust when some dates are off. For example, a timeline for the LXX vs the Masoretic text.

It doesn't "overlay", but different timelines are shown. e.g. for Abraham (Early and Late), for Paul the Apostle, for the birth of Jesus (9 BC Earliest possible, 7 BC Early, or 4 BC Late!), and for the date of Creation. ca means approximately. These may accommodate LXX vs Masoretic dates (as well as the 1 AD problem).

Another problem is that the Timeline shows that life occurred for several millennia before the (biblical) proposed dates of Creation, including Noah and the Great Flood (6000/7000 BC)! So there is a mixture of scientific estimates as well as biblical.

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 115
Robert Kelbe | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 6:08 PM

Yes, it was that that made me wonder what perspective Logos was coming from.

I thought it might be cool (and good for Logos) if you could buy alternative timelines.

Posts 115
Robert Kelbe | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 6:31 PM

I hope no one takes this as a criticism of Logos, or complaining. 

On the contrary, I am very impressed with Logos! I also enjoy giving feedback and doing what I can to make it better.

theWord has a clipboard monitor which continually monitors your clipboard for Bible verses. Whenever you copy text with Bible verses in it, it looks them up for you and displays them over your cursor in your chosen translation. You can also add it to a verse list from there. The popup disappears when you move your mouse away from it. It is very handy for looking up verses on a web page, a PDF, a Word document, etc. without having to switch applications, add a tab in Logos, etc. All you need to do is select the text and Ctrl-C and there it is. Sometimes you just want to know what the Bible verse was referring to, but you don't need to do anything with it.

http://www.theword.net/manual/index.html?clipboard_monitor.htm

Clipboard Monitor Window

Posts 3056
LogosEmployee
Andrew Batishko | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 8:15 PM

Robert Kelbe:
Yes, it was that that made me wonder what perspective Logos was coming from.

The timeline tool displays dates that have been taken from a large variety of resources. Click on the event to view the resources which mention the date. In the event that different resources contain different dates, these are frequently split into multiple events (a "late" and and "early" date for example).

Andrew Batishko | Faithlife software developer

Posts 37
Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2019 4:44 AM

Robert Kelbe:

theWord has a clipboard monitor which continually monitors your clipboard for Bible verses. Whenever you copy text with Bible verses in it, it looks them up for you and displays them over your cursor in your chosen translation. You can also add it to a verse list from there. The popup disappears when you move your mouse away from it. It is very handy for looking up verses on a web page, a PDF, a Word document, etc. without having to switch applications, add a tab in Logos, etc. All you need to do is select the text and Ctrl-C and there it is. Sometimes you just want to know what the Bible verse was referring to, but you don't need to do anything with it.

I've been wishing for this functionality myself. So far, the closest I've got is to copy the whole text to clipboard and then create a passage list "from clipboard" (see this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/157022/947289.aspx ) but this is usually more of a hassle than it's worth so I generally just look up each reference (in the PDF I'm reading) manually.

Posts 246
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 2 2020 11:43 PM

Gail:

Robert Kelbe:

theWord has a clipboard monitor which continually monitors your clipboard for Bible verses.....

I've been wishing for this functionality myself. So far, the closest I've got is to copy the whole text to clipboard and then create a passage list "from clipboard" (see this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/157022/947289.aspx ) but this is usually more of a hassle than it's worth so I generally just look up each reference (in the PDF I'm reading) manually.

I've been playing with this for awhile now (11pm - glad I have no work tomorrow), and here's what I've concluded.

1. I'm a long time user of theWord and the Clipboard Monitor feature is by far the hardest one to let go. It amazes me that for profit products like Accordance and Logos do not include this feature. They both "almost" get there with certain features, but then fall flat on their face with an utter lack of real functionality.

2. BUT, there is a caveat for Logos. While they may have failed at providing this one feature (that I would consider impossible to live without), they make up for it with a few other features along the way that are just as important. Gathering and auto formatting references. This cannot really be done very well by theWord, and it's terrible with Accordance, but with Logos, I can copy mass amounts of text with bible references within, then create a passage list from that text. It creates a very nicely formatted list of references that I can go through, read the text directly in whatever version I choose (not possible with theWord), and then I can select verses from that list and copy/paste to an external document.

3. But that's not the best part. Yes, the work around to getting the list out of Logos is to Export to clipboard, but its the additional option within export that makes all the difference. Let me explain. I'm finishing up my Master's degree before the end of this year (finger's crossed), and will be starting a PhD program in the spring. That's two or more years of near constant biblical research and writing ahead of me, with a dissertation in the final year. There will be hundreds of references and citations. I will have to document everything. In the Export feature of Logos, I just discovered, you can choose between "print as shown on screen" or "print as minimized list." Now, this might seem like no big deal, but the second option reformats the list of references into a polished list of references. Copy that to the clipboard and paste it in Scrivener, and I'm done. It's fine if you have a half dozen references. But if you have multiple dozen for each section or each chapter, it is ridiculously time consuming. 

My solution for the clipboard monitor. I had to come to terms with it. And it is ridiculous. I run theWord in the background so whenever I'm reading and there are references I want to look up (typically dozens either in long lists or scattered throughout a page), I just copy and theWord pops up it's little box and I start reading. That's the entire purpose of the program now. It serves no other function than to provide this feature that ALL other bible programs seems oblivious to. I read a ton of ebooks on my computer and as much if not more academic journal articles. If I had to look up each reference manually, one at a time, I would go insane! I have to wonder what actual scholars do with this issue? I mean, Logos is the program their supposed to be using, right? They're have a brutal reading workload. Are they just not bothering to look up the passages?

It will be interesting to see which feature I use more in the future: clipboard monitoring in theWord or auto formatting of references for external documents. 

Steven

Posts 25908
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 2 2020 11:52 PM

Steven Veach:
My solution for the clipboard monitor. I had to come to terms with it. And it is ridiculous. I run theWord in the background so whenever I'm reading and there are references I want to look up (typically dozens either in long lists or scattered throughout a page), I just copy and theWord pops up it's little box and I start reading.

Have you looked at using a Passage List for this?

There are options to populate the List from either selected text or the contents of the clipboard?

Posts 246
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 3 2020 1:09 AM

Graham Criddle:

Have you looked at using a Passage List for this?

There are options to populate the List from either selected text or the contents of the clipboard?

Oh, yes. I've played with it for quite awhile this evening. Unfortunately, it simply does not come at all close to the functionality and simplicity (or speed) of the clipboard monitor in theWord. I see these two options as fundamentally distinct. The Clipboard monitor is primarily useful when reading outside of the bible program (i.e. journal articles, ebooks). When I come across a series of verses I want to read (quickly), I copy and a popup displays in the top right corner of my screen. I read the verse, move the mouse and the box disappears and I go back to reading the article or ebook. It's really just about a rapid and convenient way of looking up the reference, especially if there are a lot of references, or the references are spread out over the page. Not necessarily about collecting the references.

The Passage List + Export feature in Logos seems to have more of a publishing benefit than one for external reading and on-the-fly lookup of references, especially with the ability to auto format large lists of references. The process naturally moves in the opposite direction as does the clipboard monitor. 

In my opinion, both features are quite important, especially for the scholar, researcher, or seminary/college student (though, the accounts I've read of several professional researchers and scholars state they're still printing articles off and reading on paper, which seems like insanity). 

Trying to use Passage List as some kind of work-around to replace the clipboard monitor is just not workable. I don't think it was designed that way. I could be wrong. But I definitely will be creating a process where 1. I read journals and ebooks 2. I look up passages on the fly using the clipboard monitor in theWord 3. those references that are important will be added to a running list in Logos (because the greater majority of references I look up are not related to my research) 4. As I'm writing in Scrivener and need those references, I will go to Logos, export from the passage list, auto format, send to clipboard, past in Scrivener, and 5. Done (time for pizza and a game of pong).  

Passage List is missing a few key features to be a genuine replacement. Logos should really consider implementing.  

Steven

Posts 27926
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 3 2020 1:41 AM

Steven Veach:
But I definitely will be creating a process where 1. I read journals and ebooks 2. I look up passages on the fly using the clipboard monitor in theWord 3. those references that are important will be added to a running list in Logos (because the greater majority of references I look up are not related to my research) 4. As I'm writing in Scrivener and need those references, I will go to Logos, export from the passage list

  1. Read journal/ebook
  2. Copy some text with references and Add to a Passage List in Logos (from clipboard)
  3. Delete references that are not important
  4. Export from the Passage List when ready

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 2708
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 3 2020 6:55 AM

Steven Veach:
The Clipboard monitor is primarily useful when reading outside of the bible program (i.e. journal articles, ebooks).

Are you aware of RefTagger utility from Faithlife? https://faithlife.com/products/reftagger

As a doctoral student I first try to buy my resources within the Logos ecosystem (Logos or Faithlife Ebooks editions) which have references tagged so I only have to hover and a pop-up with the reference appears. I don't expect Logos to add functionality to other sources, but RefTagger does a pretty good job.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 25908
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 3 2020 7:15 AM

David Thomas:
Are you aware of RefTagger utility from Faithlife? https://faithlife.com/products/reftagger

I'm interested in how you would see Reftagger working here, David

As far as I know it requires someone to install it on a website and it then shows Bible passages when hovering over a reference.

Steven seems to be looking for something different - or am I missing your point?

Posts 2708
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 3 2020 7:37 AM

Graham Criddle:
I'm interested in how you would see Reftagger working here, David

I may be mistaken, but I thought Reftagger has a browser plug-in that does what Steven is requesting. [I've installed so many different utilities from so many different (now defunct) Bible software programs that I can't keep track of which does which] I do recall installing RefTagger and my blog was automatically hyperlinked.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/scripture-tagger/bjdodjhgmhfknagondkknocjpdchkhcn?hl=en-US 

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 246
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 3 2020 8:57 AM

Hey Dave,

This process you listed might work for you, and that's great. But, it's missing one key element: rapid reference retrieval for the purpose of quick reading. When I'm going through a journal article or ebook, I don't want to stop and do steps #2 unless the reference is relevant to my research. Probably 60%-90% are not relevant enough to justify collecting the reference(s). But I still want to read them, especially if the context or argument being made is interesting, controversial, or I'm skeptical of it.

I'm with you on #2-#4 when I've already finished with #1. But the clipboard monitor in theWord is the closest thing I've come to solving this problem of turning biblical references into hyperlinked references for rapid retrieval (so I'm not looking up each verse individually). TheWord doesn't actually do this (turning references into hyperlinks), but it solves the problem a different way.

Hope that clarifies what I'm trying to accomplish. The collection and publishing process is great in Logos. It's just the rapid reference lookup for quick, cursory reading in context of a document, webpage, etc is where Logos has no functionality.

Hey David T,

Yep, I've tried RefTagger. It turns your website into hyperlinks. There are several other programs that do the same thing. But, there is a deficiency here. 1. I cannot turn references for other websites into hyperlinks (other programs can do this). 2. It does not work on journal articles in pdf format or ebooks in pdf or epub format. I primarily read from the latter two and also do so often without internet access. So I needed a program utility that would 1. auto lookup and display a reference I came across in pdfs or epubs documents, 2. run locally on my computer, and 3. would be inconspicuous enough that it would require less than 1 or 2 clicks to accomplish the task (which Logos scripture display workaround does not solve). I've tried many different programs, even found a defunct program that did exactly what I was looking for (but it's no longer available). So, I resolved to having theWord sit, minimized, and it works great. I just wish I could get rid of theWord (don't use it for anything else) and switch entirely to Logos.

I would disagree with you on the Logos needing to add functionality to other sources. This is the digital age. There have been great advancements in technology and how we consume data and information. We have the capabilities. I'm just really surprised this is not a higher demanded feature. I can only assume the majority of academia is simply passing over references and not bothering to look them up (unless they are looking up each individual reference manually).  

Buying only within the Logos ecosystem is not something I'm able to do. For one, I simply can't afford to do that. And, two: there are many, many resources I utilize that are not available via Logos or their mechanism.  

Since information is still disseminated in various formats, a more ubiquitous system is needed (in my view) on how we can retrieve information. I don't mind using theWord in tandem with Logos. It's just surprising to me that a Free product has solve this specific problem, but a corporate product has not. Especially a problem that is relatively simple to solve.

Steven

Posts 204
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 3 2020 9:22 AM

Hey Steven,

It is still not exactly what you want, but a cool tangential feature is in the apps. If you take a picture of a printed page, it will identify all of the Scripture references on the page and look them up for you. 

Posts 246
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 3 2020 10:22 AM

Justin Gatlin:

Hey Steven,

It is still not exactly what you want, but a cool tangential feature is in the apps. If you take a picture of a printed page, it will identify all of the Scripture references on the page and look them up for you. 

Hey Justin,

I've used this kind of feature when working on math problems. Seems to work rather well, and it would definitely be something I could use if I read printed material. But I'm nearly 100% digital at this point. I no longer read actual, physical books. In fact, my eyesight won't allow it (or, maybe my eyesight has worsened because I don't read physical books). I primarily dump my pdfs and epub books and articles into Balabolka, which is a Test to Speech program that basically reads the text to me on my laptop. I prefer this program (even though it's older) because it highlights each word as it reads (rather than each sentence or not at all). When I come onto a reference or several references, I simply pause the program, highlight the references (or entire paragraph if references are distributed throughout the text) and theWord displays all the references for me in a small popup window. A quick move of the mouse and the window disappears and I use a hot key to start the reader again. In addition, I have bluetooth headphones connected most of the time, so while it's reading to me, I can get up and check my mail, do chores around the house, go out and sit in the sun, etc. Balabolka will even convert a given text (article or entire book) into audio files that I can transfer to my phone and can listen to at work. The only issue with this feature is I haven't found a way to easily remove footnotes. They are a real pain. I wish all writers used endnotes instead of footnotes, especially since most endnotes that are digitalized are hyperlinked and allow for either popup or quick click anchor points so you can move to the end of the document, check out the endnote and then click to go right back to the text. Footnotes seem to be a rather antiquated form of referencing used to make it easier to view footnotes on physically printed documents. I can't wait for the day when we do not print physical documents anymore, for anything. All digital, all the time!  

But that feature is certainly applicable for reading physical texts.

Steven

Page 1 of 1 (20 items) | RSS