Hebrew Bible search without vowels not as affective as in L3

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Philip E. Sumpter | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jun 7 2010 4:53 AM

In L4 it is possible to do a Bible search in, e.g., AFAT, by just typing in consonants without vowels. This is really practical for me. However, again and again I notice that some search queries don't work. I've now reinstalled L3 to compare and note that L3 is more successful. In the image below I have given the same search request (by copy and paste) into both L3 and L4 (i.e. לספד לשרה), but only L3 has given me results. If I type in the vowels in L4 I also get results, but typing Hebrew vowels is pretty laboursome. Is this a bug?

For L3 I used quick search in AFAT and in L4 I tried all possible seraches (Basic, Bible, morphological) and get no hits. The image here is from Bible Search. 

Posts 19717
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 19 2010 9:25 PM

Bump.

I just realized this had never been answered. I don't know much about searching in Hebrew, so I can't help. Someone else has been asking recently, too, so I thought I'd revive a couple of these old threads that hadn't been answered and hope someone else educates me.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 19 2010 11:32 PM

Philip E. Sumpter:
In L4 it is possible to do a Bible search in, e.g., AFAT, by just typing in consonants without vowels.

It is possible to do a morph search without typing in the vowels, but when you select the lemma it will automatically account for the vowels. ( Also, you need to adjust your entry to account for the prepositions (‎ל BEFORE 0 WORDS)).  It is important to select the proper lemma if you want to get the desired result.  E.g., if you type in דבר, you will need to determine the proper lemma since there are 6 lemmas which share those consonants.  One more point:  You need to use proximity operators to join together more than one word as well (BEFORE 1 WORD).  Note that the proximity operator must be in all caps.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 912
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 19 2010 11:42 PM

George Somsel:
It is possible to do a morph search without typing in the vowels

George morph searches are for other purposes. What we want is a quick phrase search without all the hassle of operators and lemmata.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 12:56 AM

David Knoll:

George Somsel:
It is possible to do a morph search without typing in the vowels

George morph searches are for other purposes. What we want is a quick phrase search without all the hassle of operators and lemmata.

This is one way:-

   right click the phrase ("no pity") and Search this resource. There were 2 occurrences - note the hit in Lam 2:2.

 

EDIT:  I note your greater concern so please understand that I responded to the "quick phrase search".

Dave
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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 1:20 AM

Dave Hooton:

This is one way:-

   right click the phrase ("no pity") and Search this resource

That works only if I can first locate the phrase and right click it but not if I start from scratch.

 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 1:22 AM

David Knoll:

That works only if I can first locate the phrase and right click it but not if I start from scratch.

Our messages crossed - see the EDIT to my original post!

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 112
Philip E. Sumpter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 4:38 AM

Thanks for responding to this post.

My problem is that sometimes I want to see if a specific phrase exists at all in the Bible. I think I know how I would say it in Hebrew, but I want to confirm. Thus I type in the word to see what I can get. The problem is that Hebrew vowels are not only ridiculously complex, they vary from context to context. Seeing as this worked in L3, why doesn't it work in L4? It's another reason why I don't want to delete L3 yet.

Another possible use: you are doing a Hebrew exercise and see a phrase but can't translate it. Therefore, you do a search for the phrase to see where it actually occurs. Typing in all the vowels to do this is way too time consuming.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 9:08 AM

Philip E. Sumpter:

Thanks for responding to this post.

My problem is that sometimes I want to see if a specific phrase exists at all in the Bible. I think I know how I would say it in Hebrew, but I want to confirm. Thus I type in the word to see what I can get. The problem is that Hebrew vowels are not only ridiculously complex, they vary from context to context. Seeing as this worked in L3, why doesn't it work in L4? It's another reason why I don't want to delete L3 yet.

Another possible use: you are doing a Hebrew exercise and see a phrase but can't translate it. Therefore, you do a search for the phrase to see where it actually occurs. Typing in all the vowels to do this is way too time consuming.

I agree that the search capabilities of L4 as related to Hebrew are far from ideal and actually cumbersome.  I too keep L3 on my computer for just this reason.  I really wish they would go back to the method used in L3 for creating searches since I have found L4 somewhat less than ideal.  That said, it has improved since its first implementation.  It got to the point for a time that I wouldn't even attempt to search Hebrew in L4.  I guess we need to keep kvetching.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 596
LaRosa Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 9:17 AM

Here's a possible solution, although it does require having the Logos keyboards installed (so that you can switch from the US/English keyboard to Hebrew)

open AFAT and then use the Find option (Ctrl+F) and then you can begin typing the text that you're looking for, and it'll find them w/o the need for vowels Smile... that will at least take you to the first occurrence in the text and then you can go through them all with the Previous/Next buttons.

I just tried it to verify, and it worked for me.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 9:28 AM

LaRosa Johnson:

open AFAT and then use the Find option (Ctrl+F) and then you can begin typing the text that you're looking for, and it'll find them w/o the need for vowels Smile... that will at least take you to the first occurrence in the text and then you can go through them all with the Previous/Next buttons.

I just tried it to verify, and it worked for me.

Good find.  I've used the find function in both Greek and Hebrew texts, but I wasn't aware that it worked without vowels in Hebrew.  It would appear that some want to be able to find text without entering vowel points while others want to find an exact match to the text with specific vowel points.  I think we need to push for the ability to turn on / off the search for vowel points.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 912
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 10:01 AM

George Somsel:
open AFAT and then use the Find option (Ctrl+F) and then you can begin typing the text that you're looking for

Thanks. Still cumbersome for a lexicon lemma typing but as a temporary workaround for the phrase search it is an improvement.

George Somsel:
It would appear that some want to be able to find text without entering vowel points while others want to find an exact match to the text with specific vowel points.  I think we need to push for the ability to turn on / off the search for vowel points.

YesYesYesYesYes !

Posts 112
Philip E. Sumpter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 11:18 AM

Thanks for the suggestion, I hadn't tried the search function alone. This is a helpful temporary solution. It will still mean living without an overview of all possible results, of course. 

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