ANNOUNCEMENT: End of support for Windows 7, Windows 8.1 & MacOS 10.11–10.13

By the way, if you still have Win7, see this reply to this thread (April, 2019) for information about upgrading to Win10 free:

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/181032/1047105.aspx#1047105 

I had bought a couple of refurbished desktops that still had Win7 just after the free Win10 upgrade window had (officially) closed. I was happy to see that post. My experience with the upgrade was painless.

I’m probably the least tech-savvy person on here, so pardon my ignorance.  But, I have a Mac Air, iPad Pro & iPhone 10.  I see the reference above to Mac, but surely this doesn’t mean that all Mac (or iPad Pro) will not be able to use Logos by Feb. 2020 (?).  

I‘ve literally spent thousands of dollars on Logos products in the last year or two—as well as referred many people in the church I pastor to the Logos app. (and many preacher friends).  I sure would hate to lose all of this somehow.

I have a 2008 MacBook Pro and it will not run Logos at all. I can still use the web version until I get a newer computer but a Mac as old as mine can only run up to IOS ver 10.10.5 so the OS on mine cannot be updated anymore. My time is up so time for a new one.

JT (alabama24) said:

A minor clarification: the correct terminology now is macOS. They dropped the term "OS X" in 2016. However, El Capitan predates the name change so perhaps you are right?

Apple still call El Capitan OS X! https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT206886

Mark Barnes said:

Puddin’ said:

I’m probably the least tech-savvy person on here, so pardon my ignorance.  But, I have a Mac Air, iPad Pro & iPhone 10.  I see the reference above to Mac, but surely this doesn’t mean that all Mac (or iPad Pro) will not be able to use Logos by Feb. 2020 (?).  

No, not at all.

So long as you keep you Mac upto date with MacOS updates, you'll be able to continue to use Logos in the future.

MacOS is currently on version 10.14 (with 10.15 coming soon). The announcement is only saying that by February 2020 you'll need to update to that version. That will be no problem unless your Mac is more than seven years old. You'll need:

• MacBook: Early 2015 or newer
• MacBook Air: Mid 2012 or newer
• MacBook Pro: Mid 2012 or newer
• Mac Mini: Late 2012 or newer
• iMac: Late 2012 or newer
• iMac Pro
• Mac Pro: Late 2013 or newer; Mid 2010 or Mid 2012 if upgraded with a recommended Metal-capable GPU

If you have a Mac that's older than that, you'll probably still be able to use Logos, but new features won't be available.

Got it!  Thanks much Mark.

1. Getting Jesus into the hands of the masses is more important than following the lead of greed in telling the poor masses "we won't support you, because the mass greedy wealthy isn't going to support you."  OTOH, Windows 10 WAS given away for free!!! 

2. (Extra rambling) The only reason why Microsoft is not going to support older systems, is money. I get it. I made 0 sense of windows 8, and windows 10 wasn't even better, so I didn't install it. OTOH, I do NOT expect Logos to be able to afford the extra cost to do backwards support either. 

3. Question follows - Also, I found some blurbage on the web  that scared me away from Windows 10. iIt basically meant "Microsoft has the exclusive rights to force reboot your computer after secretly installing updates such that you can not save first." This is why I didn't downgrade to windows 10. I thought that IF and ONLY IF this was true, then Microsoft was being evil to the core. I am not going to save every little word I type right after typing it,  just because windows is not letting me save before it insist on rebooting. OTOH, my laptop is old and does need replacing. I was hoping to have a couple years. 

Question - Did Microsoft FIX the issue so that we can save work before they forcefully reboot computer? With Windows 10, specifically? Thanks! 

signed sad and wishing for 2021 date instead of 2020. (Arbitrary date in which my laptop and others like it, might not be working anyway.)

I would like to ask if there is any way Logos could set up two different download types by 8.12?

One would be a data only, and the other would be program upgrade?  Or updated software data type?

That way, people who have older computers, and older versions of the software on those computers, can still buy new books,, and use them on their machine(s).

Is it difficult for Logos to "tag" each new resource publication as to whether it is merely a document, or such a thing as a dataset or file which would require the higher OS and version of Logos?

In other words, mere books ought to be compatible with all versions of Logos, no?  Blessings.

PetahChristian, Bradley, and Mark:  thank you all so very much for your comments, empathy, and clarifying information!  Your kindness and expertise are, in my mind, evidences of your genuine love for God, and what He is doing through this software.  Blessings.

What I'm learning from you is that Logos documents (called "books" on your website) are not just text and image (in computer lingo) files combined, like on a web page.  It's the indexing process, the interconnection between resources that requires the datatype mobility, and thus software upgrades.  An example would be a link to the Timeline Tool when a date is mentioned.

But if people want merely words and images, without some of that interconnectivity, then I presume books will be readable, just not able to jump to, say, the timeline from the text you're reading.

I still think it a wise idea, since a good portion of your client base is made of senior citizens on extremely limited incomes, to allow download of new *book* resources only, and not software upgrades, by older software versions.

That way, Logos and Faithlife become *ministries* over businesses.  But then again, I don't have to pay salaries for the corporation, do I?  [;)]

Paul L. White, Satisfied Logos User since 1.6

Paul L. White said:

What I'm learning from you is that Logos documents (called "books" on your website) are not just text and image (in computer lingo) files combined, like on a web page.  It's the indexing process, the interconnection between resources that requires the datatype mobility, and thus software upgrades.  An example would be a link to the Timeline Tool when a date is mentioned.

But if people want merely words and images, without some of that interconnectivity, then I presume books will be readable, just not able to jump to, say, the timeline from the text you're reading.

I still think it a wise idea, since a good portion of your client base is made of senior citizens on extremely limited incomes, to allow download of new *book* resources only, and not software upgrades, by older software versions.

Your description isn't quite accurate. Let me give an example.

Let's imagine Faithlife a release a new book. There's nothing technically innovative about it. Like most books it has page numbers, and contains lots of Bible references, but that's about all. This book will very likely be able to be used by older versions of the software.

But then they release another book. This is a reference book, that has its own reference scheme. Instead of page numbers, it has sections and paragraphs, so other resources that refer to it use a naming scheme like ABC 1.7, or ABC 8.9. This reference system hasn't been used in Logos before, as it's unique to this book. A new version of Logos will need to be released in order to support this reference scheme, and therefore this book will only be able to be used with the latest version of the software.

(This is one example of why some new books will require the latest version of the software. There are other possible reasons too, but I hope this is sufficient to explain why it isn't possible to fully disconnect resources from software versions.)

 I have the Mac version of logos. My MacBook Pro is from the mid 2010 and I run macOS High Sierra. According to this announcement it appears that I will need to get a new MacBook every four years sense El Capitan  was released about four years ago and now will not receive any updates.  If this is true I will admit this makes me very upset since I put so much money to buying this library that’s is supposed to be cheaper than print books but if I have to buy a MacBook every four years and they cost around $1200 and they can get pretty expensive pretty quickly.  Can you confirm that I will or will not need to get a new MacBook every for five years just to have updated versions of my logos?

Not if you update your macOS every year (which is free). Your Macbook will be fine until Apple makes a macOS that it cannot run. Then it will be a few years after that when Logos will not run on the last supported macOS for your Macbook.

Based on your post before this last one, it's about every 9-10 years, not four.

A 2010 Macbook Pro would work until 2019.

So, I know that I am in the minority, but this message bothers me significantly. First of all, I have been a Logos customer since the early 1990s and I have spent thousands of dollars on new material and especially upgrades to the program and its features. Second, I purchased my computer when the latest and best Windows was 8.1. When the upgrade to 10 became available, it crashed my system. After a week with a Microsoft tech, I learned that a number of key drivers needed were never going to be updated to be Windows 10 compliant. Now, I am being told that the only system you will support is Windows 10 64 bit? I cannot afford to buy a new computer. I can't afford to spend any more on Logos. This is more than frustrating. I have lost all faith in Faithlife.

I understand and empathize with these complaints. Earlier this century, I was stuck between computer upgrades for about 10 years. I had Libronix on my system during those years as the latest versions of Logos passed me by. I even wrote two theses with that, and oh, a faster system and Logos 4+ would have made those much easier.

Everyone's situation is different, but I think many concerned users will be able to function with their current version of Logos for a long time, even if they aren't able to update anymore--and let's face it, if you can't afford to upgrade your computer, you likely can't afford much in the way of a base package when the newest version of Logos rolls out. But there's another option I don't think I've seen mentioned in this thread yet--the Logos web app at https://app.logos.com/ . It may not do everything the desktop does, but I would think it would support new books you buy even if, for some reason, you become unable to download them to your desktop program.

Finally, to speak a little more bluntly and less charitably, if you're having difficulties affording computers, you really don't have much business sticking with Macs. Comparable Windows systems are available at much lower prices. Most of my colleagues use Macs, and I see them go through constant headaches with them. So, that's something to consider as well.

Paul L. White said:

I think it would help many users to understand this event better if we knew what it is that Windows 10 will allow the new Logos versions to do that Windows 7 cannot allow?  There must be some advantage to Windows 10 besides just "keeping up with Microsoft."

All software is built on an API provided by the Operating System and by other frameworks. These APIs and frameworks mean you don't have create everything from scratch, but you can utilise common functions much more easily. For example, a new version of an API or framework may make it much simpler to add a new feature to your application. Instead of adding thousands of lines of code to add the new feature, you can piggy-back on the framework's functions and do it in (perhaps) a few dozen lines of code.

The main framework Logos uses on Windows is .NET, which is provided for Microsoft. The current version of .NET runs happily on Windows 7 SP1, which is one of the reasons why Logos currently requires SP1 to be installed on Windows 7. Therefore it's unlikely that Logos will suddenly stop working on a Windows 7 SP1 machine, even after the end of support. However, IF Microsoft bring out a new version of .NET that requires Windows 10 AND Faithlife switch to that new version THEN new versions of Logos would not work on Windows 7, AT THAT POINT.

The crucial part of the announcement is this:

Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:

While we don't anticipate any immediate problems using Logos on Windows 7, it will not be a priority to maintain backward compatibility with an operating system that is no longer supported by its provider.

Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:

Logos 8 will continue to receive updates, but we will no longer test the application on these operating systems, nor deliver bug fixes that exclusively affect them.

Faithlife are NOT saying that Logos 8 will no longer run on Windows 7. There are saying two things:

1. They can no longer guarantee that Logos 8 will run on Windows 7 for the future, because they're not going to test the app on Windows 7, and if there are bugs in Windows 7 they are not going to work around those bugs. It's entirely possible that future versions of Logos 8 will continue to work on Logos 7 – but equally, they may not.
2. If Microsoft release a new version of .NET that doesn't work on Windows 7, then they may well switch to that version at that point.

(The 32-bit Windows 10 announcement is likely to be different. In that case, I would expect future versions of Logos 8 to simply not install on 32-bit Windows 10.)

In addition, there are big changes coming to .NET that it's very possible Faithlife will want to take advantage of. Keeping their development tools current is a very sensible way of ensuring they can make that transition smoothly when it's necessary.

Thank you, Mark Barnes!

And for those who may not know what API stands for, here's what Google provides:

An application program interface (API) is a set of routines, protocols, and tools for building software applications. Basically, an API specifies how software components should interact. Additionally, APIs are used when programming graphical user interface (GUI) components.

An API is a software intermediary that allows two applications to talk to each other. In other words, an API is the messenger that delivers your request to the provider that you're requesting it from and then delivers the response back to you.

Now the move makes a lot more sense, Mark.  It means your developers are at the behest of the Operating System, and that maintaining a data bank of code that will always work, no matter what the .NET version that's available, would limit the functioning of this software.

And, truth be told, it's one of the most powerful software packages ever created.  For those of us with some programming experience, it baffles the mind as to what Faithlife has done, here.  The graphics and inter-reference linkages are just outstanding, and the functions available are stunning (for example, the new choices menu that occurs when you highlight text).

Blessings.  Your response, Mark, was just what I had in mind, and it explains a lot.

Paul

I'll try and put this even more simply. This notice isn't saying existing installations are going to stop working, just that if you're on an old PC running an old OS, you're going to have to run with an old version of Logos in the future. That's surely to be expected, isn't it?

Reading between the lines, it's very likely that this notice from Faithlife simply means that:

1. Logos 9, likely to be released in Q3 2020, is likely to require Windows 10 or MacOS 10.14 or higher.
2. Current versions of Logos 8 will continue to run quite happily on Windows 7-8 and MacOS 10.11-10.13. There's a small possibility that later versions of Logos 8 won't run on those Operating Systems, but that's fairly unlikely.
3. A relatively small number of new resources released after the launch of Logos 9 won't work on Logos 8 and earlier. Existing resources and most new resources will be unaffected.

I'll say it again. You do not have to worry that you're going to lose your investment. It's very unlikely that your existing installations are going to stop working even after 2020.