RE: The Babylonian Talmud: Michael L. Rodkinson (19 vols.)

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Josh | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Aug 1 2019 10:02 PM

Hi,

I'm new to using Logos, but am having a bit of a problem with the Babylonian Talmud that I've got included in the base package I purchased. I was needing to access a particular part of the Talmud when I was reading a textbook (physical copy) which referenced Sukkah 51b:4, my tutor gave me this online resource to locate it which confirmed it as 51b:4 (https://www.sefaria.org/Sukkah.51b.4?lang=bi). Even though both of these resources are Babylonian Talmud, I can't use the Sukkah 51b:4 reference to locate it in Logos.

Is anyone able to advise how I move forward from this?

Posts 786
Jack Hairston | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2019 5:45 AM

I have faced similar problems in looking for Talmud quotes.

My resource by Jacob Neusner shows the folio number in its table of contents. (for example: Chapter 3 (Folios 23B-29B)).

After opening the chapter that has the folio I want, I use in-line search to find the folio (for example: [25B]) The beginning of each folio is within square brackets as shown. Then I read the folio.

It's the dummheitz method, but it works for me.

Posts 297
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2019 6:07 AM

I had this problem and ending up returning this.

The Rodkinson version can’t use those references. It’s set up entirely differently than what seems to be standard notation. In my opinion, it makes this resource useless.

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Posts 3185
Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2019 8:27 AM

Struggling with these references as well- extremely hard to locate the actual reference. This has caused me to delete the resources from wishlist , etc.

Posts 10
Joseph Lewin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 7 2019 12:24 AM

The ”:4” part looks wrong.  It may have crept in from somewhere. Mishnah and Bavli references are standardised (e.g. Sukkah 2:4 or Sukkah 11a respectively) so there should not be any variation in referencing between translation or publication, hence why you can tell it is wrong.

The only alternative is that the reference might be to the Yerushalmi, which does have a tractate sukkah, but has no standard format.  

What is the full reference? 

Posts 3
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 7 2019 3:08 AM

Hey Joseph,

The reference I got from my book was b. Sukkah 51b. From memory, I think I found the passage in the Babylonian Talmud as in the link at the top of the forum, but this particular Logos resource comes up with b. Sukkah 5, but I think it actually previously came up with a volume and chapter reference.

Posts 10
Joseph Lewin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 7 2019 4:02 AM

Interesting.

The ”b” at the start is for “Bavli” / “Babylonian”, so you know it is not a reference to another text that uses the Mishnah’s structure (eg Mishnah, Tosefta, or the Palestinian Talmud / Yerushalmi). 

A “5” on its own typically indicates a reference to the fifth chapter (perek) of the tractate in the Mishnah, so Sukkah Chapter 5. This is a common way to refer to the Mishnah but not for Talmud, although the Talmud (which is after all a commentary on the Mishnah) almost duplicates the chapter structure. To do so would be unwieldy given the Talmud’s length.

In essence, this is a reference to the Babylonian talmud’s commentary on Mishnah Sukkah chapter 5 as a whole. i have checked and 51b is part of the commentary to that chapter, so it does match up.  

Hope that is helpful and sorry if if I have misunderstood anything. 

Posts 10
Joseph Lewin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 7 2019 4:30 AM

One final point: The resource that your tutor gave you (Sefaria) is an online resource that has recently won the rights to use a well regarded near complete inter linear  translation that is being published by Koren under the auspices of Rabbi Steinsaltz. It is the go to free resource for the Talmud at the moment, along with the much older (and harder to understand, but non-interlinear) Soncino edition, which is now public property and can be found at https://halakhah.com/ (and hopefully Logos in the near future)!  The Rodkinson is an odd partial translation that is not generally regarded as being very accurate.

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