Oldest Translation in Logos?

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 13 2019 2:36 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
If some king wanted to tell if a guy was Jew would just probably look down under.

Remember the practice you're referring, was not limited to jews at the time. If memory serves, Egypt, Arabia and south. The difference was 'the law'.


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 13 2019 2:49 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
I wonder If there is a resource that tells the story of why and when the baptismal formula was changed. That way we could orient better further research on the topic.

The problem with this is that you assume it changed - you must establish that to be the case.The historical evidence I have seen implies that multiple formulas coexisted in separate communities. By the end of the 3rd century or so, the trinitarian formula predominated but Aquinas hints that the name of Jesus formula survived in his times. Aquinas raises another interesting question - why is "name" singular in the trinitarian formula?

Hamilton Ramos:
Was it just coincidence that the short formula events were the ones recorded in the Bible,

Think about this for a moment - take all the baptisms of the New Testament and split them by tradition - Matthew's, John's, Peter's, Paul's, Thomas' ... i.e. try to cover all the areas that the apostles taught in. How many of these traditions do we have evidence from? Remember the logic maxim - the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Now I will admit to a personal bias that I don't necessarily recommend ... I give the Gospels more credence than the Pauline epistles and acknowledge oral tradition.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 13 2019 9:37 PM

Good points by everyone, as usual.  

Hamilton, I am not sure if Heitmuller’s work is translated into either Spanish or English, but I do know you can pay (a handsome price) to get it translated from German.  Will try to look further into this.

David—note that Luke records in Acts 2.41 that the 3,000 were baptized according to Peter’s message in Acts 2.38:

(Acts 2.41; NASB):  So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.


That is, they were baptized according to Peter’s instructions in 2.38–which was “in the name of Jesus Christ” (cf. BDAG, ALGNT, Bruce, et. al for the law of Greek prepositions, which demands an oral invocation of said “name”).

Again, I have much more info. on this on my blog if interested (please pardon the personal reference☺️!).  God bless.

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 14 2019 3:32 PM

Thanks for the info MJ, this is really interesting.

MJ. Smith:
why is "name" singular in the trinitarian formula?

The singular of the Name seems to be a thrust that runs in Scripture :

Zec 14:9 And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; on that day Yahweh will be one and his name one."

 Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Zec 14:9). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Zecharaiah seem to have foreseen it.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah too seems to have seen it.

John seems to have seen a mix of the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man in Rev 1:12-18. One Name: Jesus Christ yet so many parts of the description were specifically of Yahweh.

So the problem I see with long formula besides name in singular, is that it has no parallel passages. And the article I quoted from an Encyclopedia arrives at a different conclusion than me, but clearly explains that the liturgical style of the long formula (internal evidence), is not the style Jesus spoke.

So we cannot rule out that was a later addition.

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 14 2019 3:35 PM

Puddin’:
Hamilton, I am not sure if Heitmuller’s work is translated into either Spanish or English, but I do know you can pay (a handsome price) to get it translated from German.  Will try to look further into this.

LOL, will better use Google translate. I am saving my pennies for some coming up pre pubs, LOL.

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