The rational of prioritization of Lexicons. I think it should be different.

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Nielsen Tomazini | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jun 17 2010 8:45 AM
Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE HE

 

Hello everyone,

I saw that there are a couple of posts about how L4 deals with the links in the Lexicons. For instance, depending on how you have prioritized your lexicons, if you open DBL and click on a TWOT/TWNT link it will not go to the TWOT/TWNT, instead it will keep you in the very same place in the DBL. So, in order to solve this problem you have to prioritize your Lexicons properly. (You can see a good explanation of this issue in this post: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/5549/98587.aspx#98587).

What I want to state here is that for me the way the program behaves is not proper. It is not intuitive at all to have a link to a specific resource and it doesn't take you to that place.

I know that there is a solution for this problem, but the solution is to make an "advanced" prioritization by setting the prioritization limits of the Lexicons. That is not a problem for me as I have worked with L3 and L4 for 3 years. However this comes to be an issue when you have to teach people on how to use L4. Principally when training people that have never worked with a Bible Software before. Everything is new to them, and as there are so many points to understand the concept of the program, the less they have to configure the program to work properly, the better.

I am a teacher assistant at Calvin Theological Seminary (Grand Rapids-MI), and every year we help student on learning how to work with L3/L4. Now, Logos 4 is a requirement for CTS students and we have a team (3) to give the necessary support for the students. That is why this is not just a matter of knowing how to do it. It is a matter of passing the concepts of the software behavior to others.

I want to state here that I am happy with the L4 structure. It is certainly easier to teach people how to work with L4 than with L3. The problem with L3 is that to make the program good for the student to follow the classes and have all the addins, tools, resources, licenses, etc., all working fine, it was quite  a challenge. Logos 4 has made it easier and I hope it will keep this way.

So, to make clear my case here, I believe the way the prioritization is working should be different. If I have a link to the TWNT, or to Strong's Number and I click on it, it should take me there. Now, if I want it different, then I can go to an advanced setting, but the way it is now is the other way around. So, if a new user of L4 accesses these links, they will get what they expect. Later on, as they learn better the program, they will learn how to configure the program the way they want.

I would really appreciate comments on this matter, so, if most people agree we could ask Logos for changes on the program behavior.

Blessings to all

www.aprendalogos.com 
Youtube: AprendaLogos

Posts 241
Nielsen Tomazini | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 8:46 AM

I don't know why there is this text at the top of the post:

"Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE HE"

Please ignore it!

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 8:59 AM

Nielsen,

Your experience in helping others strengthens your case for making some changes. In L3 we had the ability to specify keylink destinations for various data types. That is what is missing in L4 although it has been asked for.

Whether Logos provides this or not, they could simply hard wire the links you mentioned between lexicons. One ought not need an advanced degree to click on a TWOT reference and have it jump to the TWOT article. I don't know why Logos hasn't already done this, frankly. It is a weakness that should be addressed.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 5:44 PM

Nielsen Tomazini:
I know that there is a solution for this problem, but the solution is to make an "advanced" prioritization by setting the prioritization limits of the Lexicons. That is not a problem for me as I have worked with L3 and L4 for 3 years. However this comes to be an issue when you have to teach people on how to use L4. Principally when training people that have never worked with a Bible Software before. Everything is new to them, and as there are so many points to understand the concept of the program, the less they have to configure the program to work properly, the better.

If you've been working with L4 for 3 years you must really know the folk at LogosBig Smile

I wouldn't hold out too much hope for change as Bob has stated that Prioritization will "work" straight out of the box for most people, especially beginners - the data type approach of L3 is too complex in providing too many options that only the "gurus" knew how to tweak (?). The problem with a hard link (eg. DBL Hebrew in a DBL Greek Resource) is that the resource must be in one's Library else it goes nowhere when other resources could provide the link. So Advanced Prioritization may have to be taught after a while!

Dave
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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 6:03 PM

Dave Hooton:
The problem with a hard link (eg. DBL Hebrew in a DBL Greek Resource) is that the resource must be in one's Library else it goes nowhere when other resources could provide the link.

Not to nit-pick but we already have hard-wired links that can go no where in other resources. Unless we have the resource the link does nothing.

I think people might be smart enough to know that if they click on the TWOT link and don't have the TWOT that they should expect nothing to happen. Right now you could get it to go somewhere through prioritization, but I guess I'd ask why you'd need to. If you have the lemma in the reference window you can use parallel resources to find the other resources you have with that lemma (to save time you can even cycle through them with the left and right arrows). You don't need to be able to redirect a link to the TWOT to another lexicon through prioritization. I still think this is something Logos should do with lexicons. They do it with all kinds of other resources.

Maybe I'm missing some of the logic here, but with parallel resources restored I don't see why hard wiring lexicons is a problem. I think it should be done.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 18704
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 6:07 PM

Dave Hooton:

I wouldn't hold out too much hope for change as Bob has stated that Prioritization will "work" straight out of the box for most people, especially beginners - the data type approach of L3 is too complex in providing too many options that only the "gurus" knew how to tweak (?). The problem with a hard link (eg. DBL Hebrew in a DBL Greek Resource) is that the resource must be in one's Library else it goes nowhere when other resources could provide the link. So Advanced Prioritization may have to be taught after a while!

It sounds like they need a third kind of link then, between hard links and (what are the other ones called? soft links?). Just like between hardware and software, there is firmware, we could call these firm links. Thus a "firmly" linked reference to TWOT would jump to TWOT if the user has TWOT in his library and has nothing prioritized; if he has lexicons prioritized, it would follow the prioritization order. If he doesn't have TWOT and doesn't have any lexicons prioritized, it would follow some default order known only internally. So for beginners who know nothing about L4 and prioritization yet, it would work right out of the box. I don't believe the current behavior can be considered "working right out of the box" as it has caused so much confusion already.

Posts 18704
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 6:10 PM

Nielsen Tomazini:

I don't know why there is this text at the top of the post:

"Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE HE"

Please ignore it!

I'd like to figure out why that happens to some users, too, so I can help them make it stop happening. It's never happened to me before, so I don't know what causes it. What browser are you using when you access the forums? Did you simply type in your message text or did you paste it in from Word or somewhere else? Anything else out of the ordinary you can think of? Any other MVPs out there know the answer to this question? Thanks!

Incidentally, if you notice something you want to change in a post of yours, you can go back and edit it if you do so within the first few hours after posting (after that you can no longer change it). Just click on the More button to the right of your post, and you should find an Edit command on the dropdown menu, if it's still within the window of opportunity to make changes. Do your editing, and then click Post.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 6:25 PM

Nielsen Tomazini:

I don't know why there is this text at the top of the post:

"Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE HE"

Please ignore it!

I've noticed that his happens to me if I compose a post in MS Word and then paste it into the forum editor. I just assumed that there was some extra markup Word does on the file that sneaks through. I've never been ambitious enough to try to pick through the html to try and figure it out definitively.

 

Posts 241
Nielsen Tomazini | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 7:40 PM

Rosie,

I believe Kevin is right. I pasted the text from MS Word. I guess that should be the problem. I use Firefox as web browser.

www.aprendalogos.com 
Youtube: AprendaLogos

Posts 241
Nielsen Tomazini | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 7:58 PM

Dave,

I agree with you that L3 is too complex for providing too many setting. And that is exactly my point here. As Mark has pointed out, it should be simpler. So, you mention that Bob spoke on working Prioritization "out of the box" for most people. But in fact, Prioritization will only work well if I know how to do advanced prioritization.

What I would like to see is exactly that, a simpler program to use. But at this moment, if I want DBL Greek to be my main Greek Lexicon, and I want it because I know that there I have a link to the TDNT, I will not work. The TDNT link will not open the resource it refers to. So, I have to know that if I want DBL to be my prioritized Greek Lexicon I have to do an advanced setting in it. So, the program is running on the contrary of what it should be. I should, by design, do what is the most logic function: if I click in a TDNT number it should take me to the TDNT. Now, if someone want to see only the DBL even when he click on a TWNT link, this person should do the advanced setting.

So, what I would like to see is a program that is easier for the new user. In general, as I stated before, Logos 4 is a more user friendly program than L3, no doubt about it, however this prioritization process is going exactly on the opposite way.

Blessings, and thanks for the comments

www.aprendalogos.com 
Youtube: AprendaLogos

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 8:13 PM

Kevin Becker:
I've noticed that his happens to me if I compose a post in MS Word

MS Word copies, (with the text,) a header with a whole bunch of hidden format information. The editor on the forums thinks it's only HTML, and tries to decode it with the result being the "Normal 0 false false..."

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 8:42 PM

Mark A. Smith:
I think people might be smart enough to know that if they click on the TWOT link and don't have the TWOT that they should expect nothing to happen.

TWOT # is a reference that you can right click to see what resources are available - I have 3 choices, including TWOT & Enh. Strong's Lexicon! A TDNT # reference likewise gives me 3 choices, including TDNT & Enh. Strong's Lexicon! I have set Advanced Prioritization so that the #1 resource is TWOT or TDNT but it does demand experimentation/knowledge to know what is the best way to achieve that end as Resource Prioritization is a compromise when trying to manage data types.

Mark A. Smith:
If you have the lemma in the reference window you can use parallel resources to find the other resources you have with that lemma (to save time you can even cycle through them with the left and right arrows).

The "problem" with Parallel Resources is that you have to set the TWOT or TDNT reference in the text box (via the drop down menu) of a lexicon in order to move to another resource eg. moving from DBL Greek to TDNT or DBL Hebrew to TWOT.

Dave
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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 9:54 PM

Dave Hooton:
TWOT # is a reference that you can right click to see what resources are available

That's correct. However, what I and the OP seem to both want is for the link to jump to the TWOT (if that's what the link is) without going through advanced prioritization. I want the left click to work intuitively and see no reason for it not to.

Dave Hooton:

The "problem" with Parallel Resources is that you have to set the TWOT or TDNT reference in the text box (via the drop down menu) of a lexicon in order to move to another resource eg. moving from DBL Greek to TDNT or DBL Hebrew to TWOT.

I agree that to move from DBL Hebrew to TWOT using parallel resources I first have to select the TWOT number from the DBL drop-down list. My point was that if you don't have the TWOT you can still get from the DBL to another lexicon you do have using parallel resources. The only reason I can see for advanced prioritization is to override the hardwired option (if I never want to go to the Strong's lexicon with a Strong's number, for example, but to the BDAG.)

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 442
Tim Engwer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 10:19 PM

I am a long time user of Logos and I agree that if there is a link and you click on it you should go where the link says you will go.  When I first tried this and it didn't work I thought (quite naturally) that something was wrong.  I knew I had the resources but the links wouldn't take me to them.  I haven't taken the time to study this issue out in depth and as I read through these posts I find myself even more confused about how to set up the lexicons.  I've gotten them to work ok for my purposes right now but I know I'll have to tweak something else at some point to go further with the lexicons.  If I'm confused then what does this say about people who are just starting out with Logos?  They really should simplify this so a link takes you where you'd expect to go if you have that resource in you're library.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 17 2010 11:03 PM

TimEngwer:

I am a long time user of Logos and I agree that if there is a link and you click on it you should go where the link says you will go.  When I first tried this and it didn't work I thought (quite naturally) that something was wrong.  I knew I had the resources but the links wouldn't take me to them.  I haven't taken the time to study this issue out in depth and as I read through these posts I find myself even more confused about how to set up the lexicons.  I've gotten them to work ok for my purposes right now but I know I'll have to tweak something else at some point to go further with the lexicons.  If I'm confused then what does this say about people who are just starting out with Logos?  They really should simplify this so a link takes you where you'd expect to go if you have that resource in you're library.

Even I'm confused about how all this stuff works! Granted, I'd never properly learned how to use key-linking in L3, but I must admit I was baffled when I tried to get the lexicon prioritization order to work right for me for the various data types in L4, and never got very far with it. I'll revisit it when I have time. But if it's this hard for a techie to figure it out, I can't imagine a new user having any luck. Logos is awesome in many ways, but there are a couple of areas where I think they could stand to have done some usability testing with it before deciding on a final design, and this is one of them.

I'm basing this recommendation on prior experience: We had a usability lab at Microsoft, with a two-way mirror so some of the developers and product managers could sit in an adjacent room and watch a volunteer who didn't know the program at all struggle through some task they were asked to complete, using an instrumented version of the software. Based on how they got on with their task, what they said aloud to themselves as they tried to figure it out, and the data collected from the software about what things the user clicked on and typed in trying to accomplish the task, we learned a lot about what worked and what didn't in the user interface design, and we went back to the drawing board to make it more intuitive to use if need be. It might cost more up front to design better usability into a product, but it saves a lot more in product support calls down the road, and it probably wins you more positive testimonials which gets more sales, etc. So it's worth it.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 18 2010 12:24 AM

Mark A. Smith:

Dave Hooton:
TWOT # is a reference that you can right click to see what resources are available

That's correct. However, what I and the OP seem to both want is for the link to jump to the TWOT (if that's what the link is) without going through advanced prioritization. I want the left click to work intuitively and see no reason for it not to.

I was going to add that Logos could recognise such references and direct them to the appropriate resource if it is in the user's Library otherwise use Prioritization, but that creates another set of compromises for those who do not want that behaviour -  I see an Option looming on the horizon!

Mark A. Smith:
he only reason I can see for advanced prioritization is to override the hardwired option (if I never want to go to the Strong's lexicon with a Strong's number, for example, but to the BDAG.)

That's the thing - the hard link (like DBLHebrew in DBL Greek ) overrides my Advanced Prioritization that DBL Hebrew be used only for Hebrew words! A hard link is directed to a single resource (you can see that on the Context menu). Strong's number is a Reference (or soft link) and you get the usual choices on the Context menu.

Dave
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 18 2010 1:09 AM

TimEngwer:
I've gotten them to work ok for my purposes right now but I know I'll have to tweak something else at some point to go further with the lexicons.  If I'm confused then what does this say about people who are just starting out with Logos?  They really should simplify this so a link takes you where you'd expect to go if you have that resource in you're library.

I mentioned an Option in a previous post but how would anybody interpret "Send links to where you expect them to go IF you have the resource"? Where do you expect Strong's # links to go? If you said Enh Strong's Lexicon I would have to disagree as there are several other lexicons I would rather use. If you want TDNT # or TWOT # to go to the TDNT or TWOT resource I wouldn't disagree, but Enh Strong's also accepts them! Any clarifying Option in L4 would effectively be a throw back to L3!

Dave
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 18 2010 2:04 AM

The real issue is that some old resources use inappropriate referencing schemes. Enhanced Strong's simply shouldn't accept links to TDNT or TWOT.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 18 2010 5:10 AM

Mark Barnes:

The real issue is that some old resources use inappropriate referencing schemes. Enhanced Strong's simply shouldn't accept links to TDNT or TWOT.

That's an issue for resource Prioritization but it was never an issue for L3 data type prioritisation! For a more obvious reason English headword indexes were removed from several lexicons incl. TDNT, LN & Strong's but I wouldn't be sad if TWOT & TDNT also disappeared from Strong's.

 

PS. Congrats on the MVP status - well deserved.

Dave
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Posts 241
Nielsen Tomazini | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 18 2010 6:29 AM

Mark A. Smith:
That's correct. However, what I and the OP seem to both want is for the link to jump to the TWOT (if that's what the link is) without going through advanced prioritization. I want the left click to work intuitively and see no reason for it not to.

Mark, thanks for putting it very clear what is the issue here. That is exactly what we want.

Rosie Perera:
Even I'm confused about how all this stuff works! Granted, I'd never properly learned how to use key-linking in L3, but I must admit I was baffled when I tried to get the lexicon prioritization order to work right for me for the various data types in L4, and never got very far with it. I'll revisit it when I have time. But if it's this hard for a techie to figure it out, I can't imagine a new user having any luck. Logos is awesome in many ways, but there are a couple of areas where I think they could stand to have done some usability testing with it before deciding on a final design, and this is one of them.

Rosie, I agree in everything you wrote. That is exactly the point of this post. I found really valuable you sharing your experience at Microsoft. I hope the guys from Logos will see what we are talking here and maybe come with a position on this issue. I know that maybe it would be quite a challenge to change these lexicons linking at this point, but maybe there will be a better consideration on how the program should function in a future major update.

Blessings to all,

www.aprendalogos.com 
Youtube: AprendaLogos

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