Black Friday!

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This post has 117 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 5322
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 19 2019 10:14 AM

Its the lack of truth, the choice to display misleading information to make the deal appear better than it is in reality to entice people, to play on their emotions that it is a deal that they can’t pass up. It is not ethical advertising in short. It’s Saying to your customers we think your gullible enough to believe your getting this huge discount even though you really are not. Why bury the truth behind a smoke screen?

David Wanat:

Myke Harbuck:

DIsciple II:

You seen to rate the intelligence of FL’s customers as being fairly lo. To me the issue lies with the desire of FL to clearly and accurately communicate the true discount a customer is receiving. 

The bundle in your example is not worth $1,000 to the customer if they have already purchased previously books that equate to $650 of the bundles price. You are using a false economy to paint FL’s customers as lacking the ability to understand basic maths when the issue is with how you have presented the information.

Precisely! The best solution is to advertise the real savings percentage on the promo page (Black Friday sale page in this case) to begin with, so that customers can decide, based on the actual size of the savings, if they want to investigate further by clicking on the resource link to look at product and pricing details. If I navigate to a product page, it should be because I was led there by true  savings offered, not a misleading saving.

perhaps it might be good add another line.

first: % Saving off of list price

second: % savings off of what you have left to buy.

Personally, it hasn’t bothered me so far. But someday it might.

Posts 735
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 19 2019 11:43 AM

DIsciple II:

Its the lack of truth, the choice to display misleading information to make the deal appear better than it is in reality to entice people, to play on their emotions that it is a deal that they can’t pass up. It is not ethical advertising in short. It’s Saying to your customers we think your gullible enough to believe your getting this huge discount even though you really are not. Why bury the truth behind a smoke screen?

/shrug. I never bother with the hype to begin with. If I see FL saying “X% off,” I know they’re not saying it will necessarily apply to me, so I go and look at what it will specifically be for me.

I wouldn’t mind seeing the specific discount for me, but I’d rather have the dynamic price with advertising mentioning the discount for a first time customer than to have them go back to the days before dynamic pricing existed.

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Posts 3763
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 19 2019 12:02 PM

DIsciple II:
You seen to rate the intelligence of FL’s customers as being fairly lo.

If I am, then I think you are too.

Posts 5322
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 19 2019 3:01 PM

Nope,  I believe they are intelligent and so want the truth presented clearly and accurately so they don’t have to waste time on manual calculations to get to the truth.

SineNomine:

DIsciple II:
You seen to rate the intelligence of FL’s customers as being fairly lo.

If I am, then I think you are too.

Posts 5322
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 19 2019 3:03 PM

Just because it is hype does not make it acceptable or something we should /shrug about. Look where turning a blind eye had gotten the church today in the eyes of many outside of it.

David Wanat:

DIsciple II:

Its the lack of truth, the choice to display misleading information to make the deal appear better than it is in reality to entice people, to play on their emotions that it is a deal that they can’t pass up. It is not ethical advertising in short. It’s Saying to your customers we think your gullible enough to believe your getting this huge discount even though you really are not. Why bury the truth behind a smoke screen?

/shrug. I never bother with the hype to begin with. If I see FL saying “X% off,” I know they’re not saying it will necessarily apply to me, so I go and look at what it will specifically be for me.

I wouldn’t mind seeing the specific discount for me, but I’d rather have the dynamic price with advertising mentioning the discount for a first time customer than to have them go back to the days before dynamic pricing existed.

Posts 11059
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 19 2019 3:24 PM

Myke Harbuck:
Precisely! The best solution is to advertise the real savings percentage on the promo page (Black Friday sale page in this case) to begin with, so that customers can decide, based on the actual size of the savings, if they want to investigate further by clicking on the resource link to look at product and pricing details. If I navigate to a product page, it should be because I was led there by true  savings offered, not a misleading saving.

Precisely.

And in big retail, 'sale' presentation is carefully considered, in between legal demands, and insulting people you really want. The other issue is  comparative price ... always another headache.  Yesterday, I noticed Accordance was being careful on one of their promos.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 735
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 19 2019 4:52 PM

DIsciple II:

Just because it is hype does not make it acceptable or something we should /shrug about. Look where turning a blind eye had gotten the church today in the eyes of many outside of it.

Okay, at this point, I think your rhetoric is getting off the wall. Sorry, but I don’t think the issue is anywhere near the gravity you give it. I certainly don’t consider my response as “turning a blind eye.”

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Posts 1479
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 20 2019 6:05 PM

Myke Harbuck:

DIsciple II:

I love ddynamic pricing but the way the discount shown for dynamically price items is shown by faithlife is misleading. When something says 88% off it is not really 88% at all.  You have to do a manual calculation of what you will pay in the sale against what those resources would cost if you purchased them individually when they are not on sale.

I was actually coming here to express concerns over this very issue, then read your post. I completely agree. I am surprised that this isn't a bigger issue with a large number of people. It bothers me because it is misleading and completely devoid of reality. It's quite frustrating to have to calculate the true discount manually. Why would anyone at Faithlife ever think that a customer's previous purchase, with his or her won money, is a savings when calculating discounts. I just don't get it.

Case in point: This deal looks like it is 77% off. Pretty good deal, huh?

But, in reality, it's only a 26% savings to me.

Base package is $134.99.

I already own, and have paid for, $93.75 in resources (granted, I saved when I purchased those, but that savings was realized in another transaction).

So the dynamic price for the package is $41.24.

Today I can purchase the package for $30.55, a savings of $10.69 (25.92%), not $104.44 (77%).

I wish Faithlife would change this practice. I think it would be a more ethical marketing approach to give the true discount of each current transaction.

This has always bothered me a LOT as well... but I've kept my mouth shut because I never heard anyone else complain and I'm usually hesitant to be the one to start.  But in almost every case for me, the savings percentage is so far off it feels absolutely and totally misleading.  It feels intentional and has left me wondering how it's justified.  Tongue Tied

Posts 5322
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 20 2019 6:46 PM

Your choice to ignore it doesn’t and bury your head in the sand doesn’t change a thing. You think I’m overstating the issue but fact is you are defending FL are overstating the discount - it’s ok for them to overstate something - which you have agreed they are doing - but not for me to overstate the issue. So your saying. Overstating something to entice a customer to make a purchase is ok, but using an overstatement to point out where ignoring unethical behaviour can lead is not appropriate.

It took a while but I’m glad we finally cleared up where you stand David. My position has been clear for many years on FL marketing. I appreciate the people, the company and the product but I’ll all always be upfront when I believe they are getting it wrong.

David Wanat:

DIsciple II:

Just because it is hype does not make it acceptable or something we should /shrug about. Look where turning a blind eye had gotten the church today in the eyes of many outside of it.

Okay, at this point, I think your rhetoric is getting off the wall. Sorry, but I don’t think the issue is anywhere near the gravity you give it. I certainly don’t consider my response as “turning a blind eye.”

Posts 1455
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 20 2019 6:46 PM

The sales % should be separate from dynamic %. It is misleading when its together. 

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 5322
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 20 2019 6:48 PM

Thanks Rick for being bold and speaking up. Until we are honest with FL they will not consider changing their behaviour.

Rick Ausdahl:

Myke Harbuck:

DIsciple II:

I love ddynamic pricing but the way the discount shown for dynamically price items is shown by faithlife is misleading. When something says 88% off it is not really 88% at all.  You have to do a manual calculation of what you will pay in the sale against what those resources would cost if you purchased them individually when they are not on sale.

I was actually coming here to express concerns over this very issue, then read your post. I completely agree. I am surprised that this isn't a bigger issue with a large number of people. It bothers me because it is misleading and completely devoid of reality. It's quite frustrating to have to calculate the true discount manually. Why would anyone at Faithlife ever think that a customer's previous purchase, with his or her won money, is a savings when calculating discounts. I just don't get it.

Case in point: This deal looks like it is 77% off. Pretty good deal, huh?

But, in reality, it's only a 26% savings to me.

Base package is $134.99.

I already own, and have paid for, $93.75 in resources (granted, I saved when I purchased those, but that savings was realized in another transaction).

So the dynamic price for the package is $41.24.

Today I can purchase the package for $30.55, a savings of $10.69 (25.92%), not $104.44 (77%).

I wish Faithlife would change this practice. I think it would be a more ethical marketing approach to give the true discount of each current transaction.

This has always bothered me a LOT as well... but I've kept my mouth shut because I never heard anyone else complain and I'm usually hesitant to be the one to start.  But in almost every case for me, the savings percentage is so far off it feels absolutely and totally misleading.  It feels intentional and has left me wondering how it's justified.  Tongue Tied

Posts 735
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 20 2019 6:51 PM

Back in the old days, they didn’t have dynamic pricing. even if you had some volumes, if you wanted to buy the rest of the collection you had 2 options. Buy the rest of the books individually (if that was an option) or pay the full price for the collection regardless of how many books you already. And they cost more back then:

So that’s why I don’t complain. I know the cited savings is a % of what it costs as a full purchase. For me, the important entries are price and “price if bought separately.”

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 20 2019 7:00 PM

DIsciple II:

Your choice to ignore it doesn’t and bury your head in the sand doesn’t change a thing. You think I’m overstating the issue but fact is you are defending FL are overstating the discount - it’s ok for them to overstate something - which you have agreed they are doing - but not for me to overstate the issue. So your saying. Overstating something to entice a customer to make a purchase is ok, but using an overstatement to point out where ignoring unethical behaviour can lead is not appropriate.

at this point you’re just being rude, and have missed my point. They’re not “overstating the price.” They’re saying, “compared to buying the entire collection for X with no sale, finishing your collection will cost Y.” 

at this point (you can see in my sig what I have), I care about two numbers: Price, and Price if purchased separately. The % off is trivia. It might alert me to the fact that something might be a good bargain. But that’s it.

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Posts 11059
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 20 2019 8:26 PM

David Wanat:
The % off is trivia. It might alert me to the fact that something might be a good bargain. But that’s it.

Trivia for me too ... I know it's badly inflated, so I don't waste my time with their 'sale'.

And, indeed price, price. I notice Aramaic Bible in its new package is $500 lower than last fall. Price and patience.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 5322
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 20 2019 10:24 PM

I haven‘t missed your point at all David, I know what they are displaying on the website. I simply don’t agree with you that this practice they have adopted is acceptable.

The difference between you and I is you are only caring about what is important to you. I raised this issue because I am thinking beyond myself to the wider customer audience and the potential for any customer to be mislead.  And having spoken up has allowed others to express their concerns about this practice. So if you really only care about the impact upon you, why are you getting so upset with me for simply sharing my view point?

You also are continuing with your approach of double standards. It’s ok for you to say my comments were “off the wall” but somehow what I said is rude. Really not sure how I was rude. You are failing at your attempts to look morally superior. We disagree. So what? Is it really that big a hill you have to make it personal and into an issue to die for?

Posts 735
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 21 2019 6:05 AM

DIsciple II:

I haven‘t missed your point at all David, I know what they are displaying on the website. I simply don’t agree with you that this practice they have adopted is acceptable.

The difference between you and I is you are only caring about what is important to you. I raised this issue because I am thinking beyond myself to the wider customer audience and the potential for any customer to be mislead.  And having spoken up has allowed others to express their concerns about this practice. So if you really only care about the impact upon you, why are you getting so upset with me for simply sharing my view point?

You also are continuing with your approach of double standards. It’s ok for you to say my comments were “off the wall” but somehow what I said is rude. Really not sure how I was rude. You are failing at your attempts to look morally superior. We disagree. So what? Is it really that big a hill you have to make it personal and into an issue to die for?

The irony is you’re the one imputing bad motives to people and then accuse people who think your rhetoric is disproportionate and rude of double standards.

I‘ve got better things to do than get into a flame war. 👋 

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Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 21 2019 8:44 AM

David Wanat:

Back in the old days, they didn’t have dynamic pricing. even if you had some volumes, if you wanted to buy the rest of the collection you had 2 options. Buy the rest of the books individually (if that was an option) or pay the full price for the collection regardless of how many books you already. And they cost more back then:

So that’s why I don’t complain. I know the cited savings is a % of what it costs as a full purchase. For me, the important entries are price and “price if bought separately.”

David, you have a valid point (there usually are at least two sides to every discussion), and like you, for me the most important number is price (what I can actually get it for) regardless of whether that price is accurately stated for me or if I have to crunch some numbers to figure it out.  But having said that, Faithlife has so much info regarding our purchase histories and current libraries that they leverage in so many other ways when marketing, it seems disingenuous to me that they can't give me my personal pricing/savings info instead of forcing me to calculate it, since I'm logged on and they know who I am.

I stress that it seems disingenuous to me, because I do believe Faithlife is an honest and well intentioned business, I very much appreciate what they do, and I realize there may be factors affecting the ease of providing my personal pricing/savings that I'm unaware of.

So I'll leave it at that.  I wish they would provide it.  I'll deal with it if they don't.  

Posts 3763
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 21 2019 8:51 AM

DIsciple II:

Nope,  I believe they are intelligent and so want the truth presented clearly and accurately so they don’t have to waste time on manual calculations to get to the truth.

SineNomine:

DIsciple II:
You seen to rate the intelligence of FL’s customers as being fairly lo.

If I am, then I think you are too.

1. On a lark, I pulled up a PDP for a bundle that I haven't bought, although I own some of its contents: https://www.logos.com/product/177550/ivp-ultimate-bundle. My only discount on it right now is dynamic. I see nothing whatsoever that is deceptive or misleading. The words "DYNAMIC PRICE" are even given in full caps with a dashed blue line underneath signalling that it's a link that I can click on to learn more.

Let's look at another bundle: https://www.logos.com/product/186411/lexham-geographic-commentaries. This one is on sale and I own part of it already. The words "DYNAMIC SALE PRICE" replace "DYNAMIC PRICE" and the dashed lines remain.

Now I look at a third bundle: https://www.logos.com/product/176214/osborne-new-testament-commentaries. I do not own any of this, and it is on sale. The words "DISCOUNT PRICE" replace "DYNAMIC PRICE" and the dashed lines remain.

In all three cases, the percentage off from the regular price is given alongside the full price and my price.

I also note that even on sale pages like https://www.logos.com/black-friday, which allow customers to easily bypass the PDP, FL provides "Your Price", not "Sale Price."

2. If you buy a bundle of physical books (such as a full commentary set) from the publisher, or you buy a bundle of ebooks from most (I dare not say all) other sellers of electronic books online, you don't get a discount for already owning one or more of those volumes. In the case of print books, you get a second copy of whatever, and in the case of electronic ones, you get a second copy of the same electronic file already sitting on your hard drive (or wherever). Dynamic pricing is in fact a discount, and it is regularly recognized as such by new forum members who ask whether they will have to pay twice for insert here. A sale it is not, but it is an authentic discount. 

3. When I go out and buy groceries, even if just for myself alone, it is my responsibility to make sure that I buy the food I need within the budget I have. In practical terms, this means that I have the responsibility of knowing/learning what food I already have, what I'm going to make use of in the near future, whether the lettuce in my fridge is still going to be good when I next want to make a salad, what the quantity of rice is in the bags on the shelf in the store, and considering things like whether I want to (and can) potentially save money by buying this collection of cheeses rather than that one, given the fancy cheeses I already have. If I put away all my groceries and find that I have so much fruit that it's not all going to get eaten in time because I didn't pay enough attention to what I bought and what I already had, that's my fault. Likewise, if I buy a small collection of fancy cheeses under the expectation that it contains a bunch of brie and it does not, that is also my fault, unless the packaging tells me that it does contain brie. The PDP--that is, the packaging!--for bundles of FL stuff that I already own part of tell me quite clearly what I will be getting if I buy the bundle.

In conclusion, if in my earlier post I rated the intelligence of Faithlife's customers as low, then so, I think, have you.

Posts 3763
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 21 2019 8:57 AM

Rick Ausdahl:
But having said that, Faithlife has so much info regarding our purchase histories and current libraries that they leverage in so many other ways when marketing, it seems disingenuous to me that they can't give me my personal pricing/savings info instead of forcing me to calculate it, since I'm logged on and they know who I am.

I would definitely support revising the pop-up on PDPs showing not simply a number (of dollars/other currency) in the sale line, but the actual sale percentage. I also support--as I have communicated to Faithlife before--altering that pop-up so that the Dynamic Discount appears above the sale line, which appears more logical.

Posts 11059
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 21 2019 9:33 AM

SineNomine:
the actual sale percentage

No offense to any Sears folks, but years back, when Walmart was cutting into Sears business, 'price' seemed to dawn on them. So, they marketed a cutting prices campaign, along with a highlighted series of items. It didn't work. Penneys bounced back and forth, with various CEO's coming and going, again trying to badly communicate.

David is right on 'price'. The problem is that Logos seems to have 'Sears' itself with 'everyday high prices'. Then, offset that with the extreme cuts on packages (excellent values). 

But, when they have a 'sale', they're coming off a high price, and unimpressing the potential customer, who is used to the extreme cuts. Ergo, their inflated percentages (which I assume Phil and Bob think are neato).

The irony is the inflated percentages most impact their best customers .... who already know their game. Who's fooling who?

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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