Logos 9 Wishlist

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This post has 654 Replies | 38 Followers

Posts 10961
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 1:04 PM

JT (alabama24):
The FL model is free software, paid resources. The revenue needs to come from some place.

I was surprised by the ICC sale. I remember one today with a regular price at over $90 ... one of the public domains. And other PDs in the $60 range. The resulting sale of older books is above my pay grade. I remember last year $2 each I think. 

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 99
Lee Gordon | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 1:38 PM

JT (alabama24):

Lee Gordon:
Affordability is the key issue for me. For example, some works, like Keil & Delitzsch, are free, open-source materials, yet cost $50 for a digital edition.

The FL model is free software, paid resources. The revenue needs to come from some place. The "best deals" are on large library purchases, which help to mitigate the high expense of the public domain resources. 

On the other hand, if you want a public domain resource for cheap, just make a personal book yourself. If you miss the extra features of the "Logos Edition," you will have to determine if it is worth the price asked. 

Once I did try to make a book for use on E-sword. It kind of worked, but even with special software, it probably would have taken a month to properly format it to sync with a Bible on a verse-by-verse basis.

Posts 3
Nicholas Petersen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 3:59 PM

Do you have any idea how intensive an effort it is to take an extremely terse and complex commentary like the ICC and digitize it? To this day my problem is that there are still so many typos, especially in the Hebrew text of the old ICCs, badly tagged references, etc. BUT, where’s the money going to come for continuing this mammoth work, if not from us? Just a friendly reminder...

(PS, I write this on my iPhone, it’s incredibly hard to do on this non mobile site!)

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 4:06 PM

Lee Gordon:
Once I did try to make a book for use on E-sword. It kind of worked, but even with special software, it probably would have taken a month to properly format it to sync with a Bible on a verse-by-verse basis.

 Two things: 1) Making <basic> personal books in logos is easy if you have (or can easily create) a Microsoft Word .docx file. 2) Your explanation shows why resources can be expensive! If it would take a month to create, how much is the person’s time worth who created it for you? I can appreciate where you are coming from, but developing the software and formatting the resources isn’t cheap. There aren’t millions and millions of people clamoring for these resources. Someone has to pay for them. I understand that logos can be VERY expensive. It can also be completely free. Users will have to decide how much to support the company and the development of the software. If I were in vocational ministry still, I would recommend the software to lay leaders and encourage them to purchase key resources. It can be very economical to do so. If there were a need for more features, I’d recommend a Faithlife Connect subscription. Still very reasonable.  For users who still want more, I’d encourage a base package. That is typically the most economical way to build a large library. 

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Posts 10961
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 4:06 PM

Nicholas Petersen:
Do you have any idea how intensive an effort it is to take an extremely terse and complex commentary like the ICC and digitize it?

Yes, I do it all the time. And I don't even charge myself. And remember Hermeneia and others are more complex, require royalties, and are cheaper (sale). Just a friendly reminder ....

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 99
Lee Gordon | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 4:38 PM

JT (alabama24):

Lee Gordon:
Once I did try to make a book for use on E-sword. It kind of worked, but even with special software, it probably would have taken a month to properly format it to sync with a Bible on a verse-by-verse basis.

 Two things: 1) Making <basic> personal books in logos is easy if you have (or can easily create) a Microsoft Word .docx file.

I'm talking about making a commentary that can stay synced to the text of the Bible. It has to have bible reference markups at every point where you want it to sync with a Bible text.

JT (alabama24):

2) Your explanation shows why resources can be expensive!...

Which was me agreeing with your point. However, after you get past that initial effort of getting it digitized, you can sell it again and again for years, at no additional cost. It's possible that a model which charges less actually earns them more in the long run.

JT (alabama24):

I’d recommend a Faithlife Connect subscription. Still very reasonable.  For users who still want more, I’d encourage a base package. That is typically the most economical way to build a large library.

Thanks for the tip!

Posts 99
Lee Gordon | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 4:42 PM

Denise:

Nicholas Petersen:
Do you have any idea how intensive an effort it is to take an extremely terse and complex commentary like the ICC and digitize it?

Yes, I do it all the time. And I don't even charge myself. And remember Hermeneia and others are more complex, require royalties, and are cheaper (sale). Just a friendly reminder ....

True, but you only have to do it once, then you can sell it again and again with no additional work. I made bunk bed plans once. Took me about three weeks. But then, they sold at the rate of about $100 per year, for the next ten years. You don't have to charge $50 per unit, for the next 100 years, after you get your money back.

Posts 99
Lee Gordon | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 4:46 PM

Nicholas Petersen:

Do you have any idea how intensive an effort it is to take an extremely terse and complex commentary like the ICC and digitize it? To this day my problem is that there are still so many typos, especially in the Hebrew text of the old ICCs, badly tagged references, etc. BUT, where’s the money going to come for continuing this mammoth work, if not from us? Just a friendly reminder...

(PS, I write this on my iPhone, it’s incredibly hard to do on this non mobile site!)

Once you get the hard work done, and it's digitized, you can sell it again and again, with little or no additional work or cost. A model that charges less may actually generate them more revenue, in the long run, since more people would be willing to buy it.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 5:39 PM

Lee Gordon:
Once you get the hard work done, and it's digitized, you can sell it again and again, with little or no additional work or cost.

Although it may need updating for new features and will require storage, license management, distribution management . . .

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 6:00 PM

Lee Gordon:
Once you get the hard work done, and it's digitized, you can sell it again and again, with little or no additional work or cost. A model that charges less may actually generate them more revenue, in the long run, since more people would be willing to buy it.

Yes, but who is going to pay for it? There aren’t millions... Let’s use simple math and assume this resource <only> cost $5000 to produce. [Not to maintain, update, distribute, pay for software developments, etc.]

ONE person could pay 5000 (and everyone else get it free]. TWO people could pay $2500... 100 could pay $50. But if 100 people pay $50 and everyone else gets it free, why pay the $50? Why not just wait until someone else pays for it? Again, this doesn’t take into consideration all of the others things. 

There is another problem with your specific example: the resource is NOT in public domain. The particular resource is copyrighted by Hendickson publishing. They get the first cut!

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Posts 99
Lee Gordon | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 6:27 PM

JT (alabama24):

Lee Gordon:
Once you get the hard work done, and it's digitized, you can sell it again and again, with little or no additional work or cost. A model that charges less may actually generate them more revenue, in the long run, since more people would be willing to buy it.

Yes, but who is going to pay for it? There aren’t millions... Let’s use simple math and assume this resource <only> cost $5000 to produce. [Not to maintain, update, distribute, pay for software developments, etc.]

ONE person could pay 5000 (and everyone else get it free]. TWO people could pay $2500... 100 could pay $50. But if 100 people pay $50 and everyone else gets it free, why pay the $50? Why not just wait until someone else pays for it? Again, this doesn’t take into consideration all of the others things. 

I'm not suggesting they offer it for free. They could offer it much cheaper (like $10). Potentially, more people then buy it, and they earn more money from it.

JT (alabama24):

There is another problem with your specific example: the resource is NOT in public domain. The particular resource is copyrighted by Hendickson publishing. They get the first cut!

It's free on E-sword. I've also seen a number of places on the Internet, claiming it's public domain and offering free digital editions of it.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 7:49 PM

Lee Gordon:
It's free on E-sword. I've also seen a number of places on the Internet, claiming it's public domain and offering free digital editions of it.

I don't think so, but it could be. Can you provide a screenshot of the copyright info? The Logos version is: 

Resource Info:
Keil, Carl Friedrich, and Franz Delitzsch. Commentary on the Old Testament. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1996.

The blurb states: 

BLURB:

This is the 1996 revised edition from Hendrickson, and it features a number of enhancements to the text, e.g., Arabic has been transliterated, biblical references have been changed from Roman to Arabic numerals and long paragraphs have been broken into shorter ones so that the work is easier to read.

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Posts 99
Lee Gordon | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 9:00 PM

JT (alabama24):

Lee Gordon:
It's free on E-sword. I've also seen a number of places on the Internet, claiming it's public domain and offering free digital editions of it.

I don't think so, but it could be. Can you provide a screenshot of the copyright info?

JT (alabama24):

The Logos version is: 

Resource Info:
Keil, Carl Friedrich, and Franz Delitzsch. Commentary on the Old Testament. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1996.

The blurb states: 

BLURB:

This is the 1996 revised edition from Hendrickson, and it features a number of enhancements to the text, e.g., Arabic has been transliterated, biblical references have been changed from Roman to Arabic numerals and long paragraphs have been broken into shorter ones so that the work is easier to read.

Yes. "This is the 1996 revised edition". They made a bunch of changes the to the 1891, public domain edition. They may hold the rights to their edition, but I've been using the free, "public-domain" version for years.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 9:46 PM

Denise:
I remember one today with a regular price at over $90 ... one of the public domains. And other PDs in the $60 range.

I missed your post, sorry! 

Yes, I certainly agree that there are some resources which are priced too high. In some cases FL has made attempts to lower these over time... but not all! 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 1 2020 9:55 PM

Lee Gordon:
They could offer it much cheaper (like $10). Potentially, more people then buy it, and they earn more money from it.

I understand where you are coming from... and in some cases FL has lowered the prices over time. However, one thing you miss is that some resources are more popular than others. If an item is very popular, then the price can be initially lower. One of the things FL has to guard against is selling an item high and then slashing the price. If they do so, users won't trust them when they say "lowest price ever." FL has moved away from that a bit, but they are still guarded against it. 

It looks like you are new around here... at least new to the forums. Are you familiar with the "community pricing" resources? 

Much of what I have written about here becomes more clear when you start playing around with those resources. FL takes public domain resources, determines a "cost" to convert it to a "Logos edition" resource and then allows users to bid. The commitment is that FL will charge the cost of production to the original bidders / the number of bidders. Back to my earlier illustration:

1 person bids $5000, he gets it for $5000. 

5,000 people bid $1 (or more... including the one who bid $5000), everyone gets it for $1. 

Resources which people think "everyone will want" go unfunded all the time. This is despite the no risk bidding process. 

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Lee Gordon | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 2 2020 6:42 AM

JT (alabama24):

Lee Gordon:
It's free on E-sword. I've also seen a number of places on the Internet, claiming it's public domain and offering free digital editions of it.

I don't think so, but it could be. Can you provide a screenshot of the copyright info? The Logos version is: 

Resource Info:
Keil, Carl Friedrich, and Franz Delitzsch. Commentary on the Old Testament. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1996.

The blurb states: 

BLURB:

This is the 1996 revised edition from Hendrickson, and it features a number of enhancements to the text, e.g., Arabic has been transliterated, biblical references have been changed from Roman to Arabic numerals and long paragraphs have been broken into shorter ones so that the work is easier to read.

The version you cite is a "revised", 1996 version. They noted they added a number of features and enhancements. Hencrickson may own the copyright to the version they revised, but I don't think that applies to all versions. Otherwise, I could take a public domain title, modify it, then claim no one else can ever use it.

Posts 99
Lee Gordon | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 2 2020 6:43 AM

JT (alabama24):

Lee Gordon:
They could offer it much cheaper (like $10). Potentially, more people then buy it, and they earn more money from it.

I understand where you are coming from... and in some cases FL has lowered the prices over time. However, one thing you miss is that some resources are more popular than others. If an item is very popular, then the price can be initially lower. One of the things FL has to guard against is selling an item high and then slashing the price. If they do so, users won't trust them when they say "lowest price ever." FL has moved away from that a bit, but they are still guarded against it. 

It looks like you are new around here... at least new to the forums. Are you familiar with the "community pricing" resources? 

Much of what I have written about here becomes more clear when you start playing around with those resources. FL takes public domain resources, determines a "cost" to convert it to a "Logos edition" resource and then allows users to bid. The commitment is that FL will charge the cost of production to the original bidders / the number of bidders. Back to my earlier illustration:

1 person bids $5000, he gets it for $5000. 

5,000 people bid $1 (or more... including the one who bid $5000), everyone gets it for $1. 

Resources which people think "everyone will want" go unfunded all the time. This is despite the no risk bidding process. 

Thanks for the info. I'll have to look into that.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 2 2020 7:09 AM

Lee Gordon:
Hencrickson may own the copyright to the version they revised, but I don't think that applies to all versions.

No, you are right. But that is the point. The version that FL is using IS copyrighted. It isn't the public domain version. Hence the $50 includes whatever fee the publisher charges FL. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 2 2020 7:15 AM

Lee Gordon:
Thanks for the info. I'll have to look into that.

I created a post last night to talk more about this and to provide a specific example. It might have been a little rambling. It was late. Smile

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/187355.aspx 

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