Mark Driscoll Sermon Archive - I think I want a refund

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Posts 508
Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 10:39 PM | Locked

Paul Golder:
Are we not called to exemplify purity of the Spirit when we preach the Gospel?

Paul,

I agree with you completely that we are supposed to do this, pastor's especially. But I also think our freedom in Christ allows for wiggle room in living this out as we preach. For example, to a first century Jew, purity of spirit may have included the need for the preacher of the Gospel to be living under the Law. To a Gentile of the same era, this would not be the case. This is why Paul said the things he did in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. Timothy being circumcised in Acts 16:3 may also reflect a form of exemplifying purity of Spirit that would have been important to the people Paul and Timothy hoped to reach. We see Paul doing the same thing again in Acts 17:22-34 in the Greek Areopagus. Instead of running about condemning their blatant idolatry and tearing his clothes, he complimented the Greeks on their religiosity, quoted their own poets to them in support of his point, and preached the gospel in a culturally appropriate way that netted a few new believers right there on the spot.

So yes, as I said, I agree with you 100% percent. We are called to exemplify purity of the Spirit when we preach the Gospel. But as Paul himself demonstrated so many times (Jesus did, too), the mores of one culture are not always the mores of another culture, and any one wishing to connect with their audience needs to understand that point. Driscoll understands this and he knows the mores of his congregation. If he has to talk about sex in a way similar to what they are used to, in a manner that would get their attention and keep it, then let him do that in as much as his freedom in Christ allows. Better to hear it from their pastor then to try and fill the gap with the culture's answers about sex again. The last thing we need is the Church to go Victorian towards sex again and leave everyone to fend for themselves. Even my own church has understood this need, and its a hardcore Southern Baptist church! We have a Sunday school class for married couples called The Love Lab, and it treads on the nitty gritty issues of sex in marriage. Its been extremely popular, especially among the older couples.

And that too is a way church leadership has gauged the mores of its congregation and addressed a need in an appropriate manner. My church chose not to teach these things from the pulpit because we have a large teen demographic that attends our church. Driscoll's church, according to him, does not have this demographic represented, so he has a little bit more freedom in that regard.

So while the underlying morals of different subcultures are largely the same, there's no guarantee the mores are too. So exemplifying purity of Spirit will look different in different places.

Posts 411
Ken Shawver | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 12:42 AM | Locked

Paul Golder:

Just a one note of contention:

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1 Corthains 5:12

 

Paul your point is well taken, but since I am not in direct fellowship with that part of the body I am not in a position to directly judge Mark Driscoll. If I were then I would have a direct obligation, scripturally speaking, to address it. Does it hurt the body as a whole, I believe it does. The bigger issue than the language is the whole "emerging or emergent" movement which Mark is a part of - by his own words to me is a bigger issue as their thoughts an belief have gone directly agains the word of God. The language and need to "modernize" the Word of OGd is extremely troubling. God is the same today, yesterday, and forever...why does the Word need to be updated? Why do we have to have Church 2.0.

Thanks again.

In Christ,

Ken

Dell Studio 1555; 15.6 True Life LCD; Intel Core 2 Duo T6600 2.20 GHz, 2M Cache, 800 MHz FSB ; 500GB 5400 HDD; 8GB RAM, Win 10, Chrome 70

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Posts 19223
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 1:53 AM | Locked

I have nothing to say about Driscoll that hasn't already been said. I was aware of some of the issues surrounding him but this thread has been an eye-opener.

Incidentally, a preacher doesn't have to be vulgar to be hip and "relevant" to the unchurched and the younger generation. Here's a good example:

Coldplay - Knowing God (intro to a sermon)

And in a similar vein, here's a very intriguing post:  Coldplay’s Christian Message in Viva la Vida

I'm generally pretty out of it when it comes to contemporary culture, but I did have a chance to see a Coldplay concert in Vancouver (invited by some Christian friends). They are definitely not Christian, or at least not in the same sense that U2 are (which even some Christians have trouble with), but I did like their music and I can see value in interpreting it through a Christian lens as that preacher and blog poster did.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 11:57 AM | Locked

Greg Masone:
Better to hear it from their pastor then to try and fill the gap with the culture's answers about sex again. The last thing we need is the Church to go Victorian towards sex again and leave everyone to fend for themselves.

Did you really mean what you wrote? It sounds like the Federal Government saying they will look out for us because we are too stupid to take care of ourselves. I am all for freedom in Christ. I just can't agree with having the Pope, Driscoll, Jerry Falwell or Warren Jeffs telling people married people what to do in their bedrooms. Having freedom to do what is right, holy, honorable........that is what freedom means to me. And before anybody thinks the Christian marriage is boring, consider how God gave me 19 babies, so far. Psalm 127:1-5, Psalm 128:1-6 .

 

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Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 12:16 PM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:

Greg Masone:
Better to hear it from their pastor then to try and fill the gap with the culture's answers about sex again. The last thing we need is the Church to go Victorian towards sex again and leave everyone to fend for themselves.

Did you really mean what you wrote? It sounds like the Federal Government saying they will look out for us because we are too stupid to take care of ourselves. I am all for freedom in Christ. I just can't agree with having the Pope, Driscoll, Jerry Falwell or Warren Jeffs telling people married people what to do in their bedrooms. Having freedom to do what is right, holy, honorable........that is what freedom means to me. And before anybody thinks the Christian marriage is boring, consider how God gave me 19 babies, so far. Psalm 127:1-5, Psalm 128:1-6 .

You have 19 kids? How can you afford Logos?

Driscoll never told his church what they HAD to do. He was telling what he thinks is possible if both parties want to do it because a bunch of people in his church had questions. Yet on the other hand, I think it is the pastor's responsibility to tell people what they should do in the bedroom. Paul encouraged married couples to have regular sex. This was not a suggestion on the part of Paul. Pastors today should do the same.

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 1:12 PM | Locked

Jeremy:
You have 19 kids? How can you afford Logos?

{I have 6 in Heaven and 13 walking the Earth with me.}

If I had believed Paul Erlich or MSN http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles/family/kids/tlkidscost.asp
I would never had the first.               Instead I took God at his word.

Jeremy:
Yet on the other hand, I think it is the pastor's responsibility to tell people what they should do in the bedroom.

Micro-management for the un-imaginative.   Hyphenated-generation?

Jeremy:
Paul encouraged married couples to have regular sex.

 Funny how Paul didn't need to elaborate. Then again, Paul wasn't preaching to Seattle folks.
(Just another good reason to homeschool. Confused  )

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Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 1:20 PM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:
Having freedom to do what is right, holy, honorable........that is what freedom means to me.

It seems to mean the same thing to Paul as well:

Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:16-23

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 302
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 2:01 PM | Locked

I understand the need for some folks to share their opinions about different public figures and all, myself included.  But I would have liked to have heard more about the resource.  Such as, is it that the archive is tagged badly or is there just not that much Scripture in his sermons.  Also, if Logos plans to update the way the resource is now, which is barely usuable as a study help for specific Scriptures.  Also maybe make it look a little better by changing some of the inaudiables and the (laughter) from the transcripts. 

These are all issues I had hoped this thread would address.  Whether you like Driscoll or not, it really doesn't matter to me.  I just want to be able see what he said about such and such a verse and how he applied it.  Just like any other sermon I might read through.  Many who have commented in this thread have been off topic who are normally the "off topic" police on these forums.  I just wonder if maybe a new thread could be started sharing some of the concerns people have with the quality of the resource not the critisism of the author. 

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 2:11 PM | Locked

John Graves:

I understand the need for some folks to share their opinions about different public figures and all, myself included.  But I would have liked to have heard more about the resource.  Such as, is it that the archive is tagged badly or is there just not that much Scripture in his sermons.  Also, if Logos plans to update the way the resource is now, which is barely usuable as a study help for specific Scriptures.  Also maybe make it look a little better by changing some of the inaudiables and the (laughter) from the transcripts. 

These are all issues I had hoped this thread would address.  Whether you like Driscoll or not, it really doesn't matter to me.  I just want to be able see what he said about such and such a verse and how he applied it.  Just like any other sermon I might read through.  Many who have commented in this thread have been off topic who are normally the "off topic" police on these forums.  I just wonder if maybe a new thread could be started sharing some of the concerns people have with the quality of the resource not the critisism of the author. 

Good call. Don't have the product, can't comment much.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 2:56 PM | Locked

John Graves:
But I would have liked to have heard more about the resource.  Such as, is it that the archive is tagged badly or is there just not that much Scripture in his sermons.  Also, if Logos plans to update the way the resource is now, which is barely usuable as a study help for specific Scriptures.  Also maybe make it look a little better by changing some of the inaudiables and the (laughter) from the transcripts. 

Keeping on topic,    Mark Driscoll is not a boring speaker. I know many preacher's sermons don't sound that great on paper. A great communicator uses more than just words and it may seem dry or rough when a sermon is reduced to paper. I do not know if this was a result of Driscoll's production criteria or of Logos' doing. One (one both) of the involved parties may have wanted a literal, dry transcription. I am basing these comments on what others have said. It seems there is a concensus from everyone that purchased the resource that they expected something different and hoped more for a sermon resource.

I remember the Christian History & Biography Magazine Upgrade (Issues 9, 52–99) http://www.logos.com/products/details/4635 was limited by copyright concerns. That would not be a factor in presenting the Mark Driscoll Sermon Archive http://www.logos.com/products/details/4925 in a revised format. Still, somebody has to do the work - and that takes more time & money. If you are a fan of Driscoll, I would say keep the resource and ask for a refinement. Better to have it in the rough than not at all.

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Posts 302
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 2:59 PM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:
If you are a fan of Driscoll, I would say keep the resource and ask for a refinement. Better to have it in the rough than not at all.

Thanks for the reply.  The problem is, that I am not a big Driscoll fan therefore I don't really want to spend a lot of time reading every single thing he has ever said.  I was just hoping for a quick way to see how he applied different verses and theological truths.  To be honest I am very disappointed in this resource thus far.  Hoping that Logos will update it or something. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 3:49 PM | Locked

John Graves:
I don't really want to spend a lot of time reading every single thing he has ever said.  I was just hoping for a quick way to see how he applied different verses and theological truths.  To be honest I am very disappointed in this resource thus far.  Hoping that Logos will update it or something. 

I'm in the same predicament. I'd like to have the Driscoll archive for reference & research. But what few uncommitted dollars I have to spend on resources are pulled 10 different ways on the Pre-Pub page! 
(Have you seen it lately?  http://www.logos.com/prepub  Tongue Tied )

 

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Posts 225
Michael Birney | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 7:06 PM | Locked

Just to stay on topic, and thanks for those who tried -

I read through maybe 10 sermons.  The 2nd Timothy ones were just not good, rambling and he keeps talking about his life being too busy, too much going on, and it shows in the sermons (the second or third one he admits he has no access to his library or computer, so I am not sure how he prepared for it).

The later stuff was better, and as I read through the Genesis sermons, they were much more insightful, more fun, more background, easier to read, less all over the place, I felt I had learned something, or had something to think about.  I would go to his church, I could listen to his sermons and feel like I got something out of them (especially after 2005).

All that said, it is just not the resource I thought I was getting.  I knew I was getting his sermons, but I guess I thought they would be in his notes form, what he preached from instead of what he preached.  I asked for a refund.

Those of you who just attacked Mark Driscoll, you should of kept your opinions to yourselves - you hijacked the tread which was an insult to me to OP.  Where are the apologies you who are so perfect that you can cast stones?  No one asked you about anything else except the resource, if you didn't even have it, you should not have posted.       

 

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 7:27 PM | Locked

Michael Birney:
you hijacked the tread which was an insult to me to OP

I apologize for taking part in the hijack.

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 10:07 PM | Locked

Michael Birney:
you hijacked the tread which was an insult to me to OP

Michael,

I'm sorry you were offended.

I am also sorry you asked for a refund in light of your report the content gets better as you keep reading. The resource was advertised to be a sermon archive similar to the John Piper resource. I believe Logos did deliver that much. It would be nice to have extensive tagging (if that is possible) but I don't know who you would appeal to.

If you ignore all posts by those who did not buy the resource, you are left with what you asked for. If those who like Driscoll's style and bought the resource don't like it, I don't know what to say.....   Zip it!

Though the thread did wander I do think it had input that proved beneficial to others.

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Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2010 10:32 PM | Locked

[Attempting to be on topic re using the resource, and leaving the author to one side ...]

I don't have this resource, and don't currently expect to be buying it, so offer these comments as a "workaround" for those that might feel the following is worth the effort:

Logos4 gives us a "Reading List" tool linked to a wiki page, which is able to pick up comments, Bible Refs and Links into Resources we have in Logos.

Using this, it would be possible for someone to begin a better "Index" or "Outline" for this sermon archive, so to improve the possible usefulness of this work.

This should not take away from maybe seeking Logos and/or the publisher of the work improving it, but might make it easier to draw out some of the value in this work.

If there was enough interest in this, and others added to the work, it could become the basis of an updated revision of the original resource.

Just saying ... as an idea, which might help with this resource, or any other in Logos.

Posts 168
Bill Gordon | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 28 2010 7:27 AM | Locked

Michael Birney:

Those of you who just attacked Mark Driscoll, you should of kept your opinions to yourselves - you hijacked the tread which was an insult to me to OP.  Where are the apologies you who are so perfect that you can cast stones?  No one asked you about anything else except the resource, if you didn't even have it, you should not have posted.       

So who is casting stones now?

3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!  1 Corinthians 6:3  (ESV)

Posts 225
Michael Birney | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 28 2010 8:17 AM | Locked

Bill Gordon:
So who is casting stones now?

Let me do a little of that judging you are so fond of, or maybe stone casting, just depends on how you want to look at it - you are a jerk Bill.  I mean that with all the constructive judgement I can muster towards you.  

Posts 508
Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 28 2010 8:33 AM | Locked

Kenneth Shawver:
The bigger issue than the language is the whole "emerging or emergent" movement which Mark is a part of - by his own words to me is a bigger issue as their thoughts an belief have gone directly agains the word of God.

Kenneth,

I think much of Driscoll's former reputation guides many of the beliefs about him in this discussion. Perhaps when a man repents publicly of certain actions, we as the body of Christ should extend to him our grace in as much as God has extended His own.

While he may have been associated with certain members of the now defunct "emerging church" movement, he has since burned those bridges permanently and done what he can to oppose the unbiblical portions of their movement.

If you would like to hear Driscoll talk on the Emerging Church, he did a sermon about it here: http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/religionsaves/emerging-church

He also wrote a blog about it too: http://blog.marshillchurch.org/2008/02/26/notes-on-the-emerging-church/

Kenneth Shawver:
why does the Word need to be updated?

So people can understand it. The essence of a preacher of the Gospel is to communicate the Gospel in a manner the audience can understand. God becoming man incarnate is an example of the gospel being adapted to its audience. Paul in the Aeropagus is one too, along with the measures he took on his missionary journeys to be all things to all people.

Too often we try to conform people to our traditions and styles while preaching the Gospel instead of meeting the people where they are. This is what Paul did, and what God did to you and I. God met us where we were and did not first require us to become holy before he could help us. Rather, he became flesh and blood and came to this dump heap of ours so he could make us holy.

The work of the preacher is to bring the Gospel to the people and not force the people to conform to his own traditions and styles beforehand. Traditions are good, and they can be helpful and useful, but they are not part of the Gospel. Neither are they sacrosanct or above correction or revision.

Kenneth Shawver:
Why do we have to have Church 2.0.

That number is too low. Your generation and my generation are only the two most recent ones in church history to experience a revision in tradition and style of gospel presentation and worship. What you really mean to say is you are very fond of Church 345.0, while the "gospel updaters" seem to prefer Church 346.0 or 347.0. Your generation is just another generation in a long line of Christians who have sought to modernize the presentation of the Gospel, and now the same thing that happened to your grandparents is happening to you!

So we're all guilty of this, but that's okay because its a very biblical idea.

Posts 1717
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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 28 2010 2:42 PM | Locked

I dislike suppressing any thread on our forums, but I think this one has gotten out of hand.

We're going to lock it. 

I know the discussion started out "about a Logos product", but it's gone far beyond that into an unproductive discussion of Driscoll.

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