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Sam West | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jun 30 2010 4:06 AM

I understand how the nominative works (The case that normally refers to the subject of a verb or a noun following a form of the verb)

What I am not getting is how will this help me in interrupting a particular scripture. Such as and this is Johnny’s example  

John 3 16 and 17“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that [whoever adjective, nominative]  believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 “For [God article, nominative] did not send the Son into [the article, nominative  world noun nominative] to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

 

Will someone tell me what I am looking at here in these 2 Scriptures and how this help me to understand or interpret  these  Scriptures

To me all Johnny is doing is explaining how to find these things and what they mean in relation to each other not how to take this information and apply it to Scripture to have a better understanding of that Scripture. If i am wrong I am sure not catching it

Thanks

 

 

Posts 271
Don | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 7:37 AM

     In English, word order is important to help us understand case and therefore meaning. The basic construction is subject, verb, object. In Greek, word order does not play this important role. Therefore knowing the case helps us understand which noun is the subject, or object, etc. 

Notice the word order in this selection from a Greek interlinear. IF we did not know that God was the nominative (subject) and world was the accusative (object), we might think that it was the world loving God rather than God loving the world.

 

 

 

Posts 11
Eddie Arrington | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 2:40 PM

Teaching at its best!  Thanks, Don.

Posts 19314
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 3:06 PM

Don:

     In English, word order is important to help us understand case and therefore meaning. The basic construction is subject, verb, object. In Greek, word order does not play this important role. Therefore knowing the case helps us understand which noun is the subject, or object, etc. 

Notice the word order in this selection from a Greek interlinear. IF we did not know that God was the nominative (subject) and world was the accusative (object), we might think that it was the world loving God rather than God loving the world.

True, but if we have the English translation (presumably done by experts who know this stuff about nominative and accusative), perhaps Sam was asking "what good does it do me, a Logos user, to know this stuff? How does this help me get more out of my Bible study in Logos than I could have by just reading the English Bible and the commentaries?" I'm just learning the beginnings of Greek myself, so I don't have a good answer for Sam, though I know I do want to learn some Greek just for its own benefit. Some of the more advanced commentaries will mention grammatical terminology and have Greek words sprinkled about, and it's nice to be able to know what they're talking about.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 3:37 PM

Rosie,

Keep in mind that I'm also a Greek newbie...so take this with a grain of salt...

Probably the John 3:16 / nominative wasn't the best example in which to flex the ol' Greek muscles...but there are times when there are some wild differences in translation and this stuff comes in handy...

I love it, myself....I just wish I could retain it better.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 3:50 PM

Romans 1:3 the case  preposition shows you that "concerning his Son" can refer either to v.1 "the Gospel" or to v.2 "the holy Scripture". If the latter you might go looking for Old Testament passages that might be referenced. You can't understand the issue if you don't understand how cases work - and how they can create ambiguity. If you don't understand the problem, you'll easily believe anything you are taught.

My apologies I grabbed the wrong example.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 222
Bob Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 4:06 PM

MJ - u lost me on that one.

River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org

Visit my blog: http://LifeOverflowing.org/pastor

 

Posts 222
Bob Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 4:17 PM

oh wait.  i think i get it.  

because "gospel" in v.1 is accusative, it is the object of the preposition "concerning" in v.3.   

is that correct?

River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org

Visit my blog: http://LifeOverflowing.org/pastor

 

Posts 401
Sam West | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 4:36 PM

Robert Pavich:
Keep in mind that I'm also a Greek newbie

 

Robert I am a newbe myself for sure and you are someone I can relate to. May I ask what is your game plan in learning this. Should I start out by learning all the cases? I love it too even though i am doing a lot of grumbling it is a challenge to me and I love challenges but I need something solid i sink my teeth into to get started. You might say something I can comprehend to get me started.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 4:57 PM

Sorry about grabbing a preposition rather than case example - a good way to add to the confusion Embarrassed

Okay here is a real case example. The adjective "called" is immediately follows Jesus Christ but that is not what it modified. We know that it modifies Paul a slave because the case is nominative just as Paul is nominative. If it were to modify Jesus, it would have to be genitive just like Jesus. Red is NO; black is YES.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 13420
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 4:57 PM

Rosie Perera:

True, but if we have the English translation (presumably done by experts who know this stuff about nominative and accusative), perhaps Sam was asking "what good does it do me, a Logos user, to know this stuff? How does this help me get more out of my Bible study in Logos than I could have by just reading the English Bible and the commentaries?"

If you can rely on the English text, then you don't need to learn any Greek at all! The purpose of the videos is to slowly wean us off the English texts. By the end of the videos, I'd expect users to be able to translate* the Greek New Testament using just Logos and hovering over each word. Unlike 'true' Greek students, we won't be able to parse verbs (because we won't have learned the paradigms), and we won't have very much vocabulary at all. But Logos provides glosses (tiny definitions) and parsing information on hover. If we're to do this, we'll need to know what Logos means when it tells us ἠγάπησεν is an aorist, active, indicative third person singular verb meaning 'to love'.

Teaching us that, is a major point of these videos, so I'd pay particular attention to things like case, form, mood, etc. I'd also keep a copy of the Pocket Dictionary for the Study of New Testament Greek to hand. Smile

* Before anyone points it out, I'm quite aware that languages are complex beasts. Even if (e.g.) you know that a noun is dative, you won't necessarily know whether it's a dative of advantage, of agency, of association, of cause, of possession or of place. But that's not the point. The videos are designed to significantly improve our ability, not to turn all of us into world-beaters.

 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 4:58 PM

Sam,

I don't have a game plan sorry to say. I've just started looking through the vids.

I'd be open to being a "study partner" if you want...bounce ideas of each other...ask each other questions etc...

All I've done so far is to watch a vid, go to the passages that are being referenced and go through them to inspect the grammar.

I've been TRYING to teach myself Greek for a few years now....it's slow going for sure...a partner is always nice.

 

if you have some questions or you want to partner up for support or whatever....email me:

 

rpavich at gmail dot com

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 401
Sam West | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 5:56 PM

Mark Barnes:
If you can rely on the English text, then you don't need to learn any Greek at all! The purpose of the videos is to slowly wean us off the English texts. By the end of the videos

 Wean us off the English text:: Mark this is what turns me on.

When I stop and think about it I think Dr Heiser and Johnny said mastering this would be equivalent to a 3 year Seminary education. i have had my videos about 2 weeks. would you call that no patience?

 

 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 6:02 PM

SAM WEST:
i have had my videos about 2 weeks. would you call that no patience?

No..I'd call that 2 semesters! Surprise

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 401
Sam West | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 6:13 PM

Robert Pavich:
I'd be open to being a "study partner" if you want...bounce ideas of each other...ask each other questions etc...

 

Robert I would love that but i assure you, you will come out on the short end of the stick. I very thick headed

Posts 13420
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 2:17 AM

SAM WEST:

When I stop and think about it I think Dr Heiser and Johnny said mastering this would be equivalent to a 3 year Seminary education. i have had my videos about 2 weeks. would you call that no patience?

Yup Big Smile

If you're going to get the most out of the videos, you're going to need to go through them fairly slowly. A lot of people are rushing through them once, then going back and working their way through them more carefully. That seems wise to me. It's a shame that exercises aren't included in the videos. But at the end of a video, I'd spend some time (I'm talking hours not minutes) working through some examples of my own, to help everything sink in. Don't view this as a waste of time - not only will you be remembering what you've learned, but you'll actually be handling the Bible text. Give yourself a passage that you're going to be teaching on soon, or one that has struck you recently, and apply that chapters lessons to that text. Any time you're not clear about something, replay the video.

 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 2:52 AM

Mark Barnes:
If you're going to get the most out of the videos, you're going to need to go through them fairly slowly. A lot of people are rushing through them once, then going back and working their way through them more carefully. That seems wise to me. It's a shame that exercises aren't included in the videos. But at the end of a video, I'd spend some time (I'm talking hours not minutes) working through some examples of my own, to help everything sink in. Don't view this as a waste of time - not only will you be remembering what you've learned, but you'll actually be handling the Bible text. Give yourself a passage that you're going to be teaching on soon, or one that has struck you recently, and apply that chapters lessons to that text. Any time you're not clear about something, replay the video.

Fully agree, I'd also recommend...(this is slightly weird) to say things out loud to yourself, repeat them back, reinforce them...

When he mentions a particular instance of certain grammatical form....go looking for others....etc.

 

It's a long road ESPECIALLY doing it on your own....but it's amazingly rewarding no matter what level you are at...as Mounce says: "At our stage we aren't likely to be able to challenge Daniel Wallace...but we CAN understand technical commentaries enough to follow the arguments and make better decisions"

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 4:16 AM

 

SAM WEST:
17 “For [God article, nominative] did not send the Son into [the article, nominative  world noun nominative] to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Just to keep things straight. The and world in the above example are not Nominative. They are in the Accusative Case as objects of the preposition into.

Posts 401
Sam West | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 1:02 PM

Jack Caviness:
Just to keep things straight. The and world in the above example are not Nominative. They are in the Accusative Case as objects of the preposition into.

Jack you are sure right and I am very sorry. I guess I got in too big a hurry with my examples  and made a mistake. its all Greek to me anyway. may never learn it but having a good time trying. You full blood seminary people are probably laughing up your sleeves at us newbie’s. Anyway we were lead to believe anyone could learn this not knowing any Greek or Hebrew at all.

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 1:16 PM

SAM WEST:
You full blood seminary people are probably laughing up your sleeves at us newbie’s.

If they are, then they have a really short memory. I got straight "B"s on my greek courses, with 2 hours of study a night. To tell you what that means you have to understand, to get an "A" in most other subjects wouldn't require me to study 2 hours a week. I loved my Greek classes, wish I had time to go further, but I sweated blood. These videos will not get you to the same place, but close enough for many. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised that the videos will encourage some to go on and  take traditional language courses.

So laughing at other people's language mistakes isn't high on my list of things to do.

 

 

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