Logos Reader

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This post has 78 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 27
Jeremy Hulsey | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 6:16 PM

I'm not really enthused at all about this. Logos is not Kindle and it's users didn't purchase the program for a reading library. This seems to me to be a waste of time and resources for a program that's devoted to Bible study and its related fields. I hope this is a short venture. 

Posts 1074
Lew Worthington | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 7:00 PM

This is very similar to something I hoped for a few years ago. I know I reveal a lot of ignorance there Stick out tongue and there are differences (in purpose, in results, and in other ways), but it would be easy to make a case for a huge chunk of the types of things that have been fully tagged to be candidates for a Readers Edition.

Posts 49
Mac | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 7:02 PM

May I ask what is tagged in the reader edition that is not tagged in the ebook edition?

What extra Marked Up are there in the reader edition that is searchable  which is not searchable in the ebook edition

Posts 3576
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 7:08 PM

Jan Krohn:

What's the difference between Logos Research and Logos Reader?

My first response to this matter was as can be expected visceral. Resistance, reluctance to change, alarm, and the fog of questions and confusion. I called my sales rep to determine if he was aware of the introduction of this change and what reassurances he could offer me. He knew nothing. I educated him and asked him to inform himself and get back to me.

The best explanation for this was one that offered what is at the root of all change motivation towards a perceived goal. Ben summarized.

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):

We decided to introduce Logos reader editions for a number of reasons, but here are the three biggest:

1. To expand our catalog beyond what we would normally offer by keeping production costs down. Reader editions allow us to include books in our catalog that would otherwise not make it into Logos. While they don’t’ have the full markup of a research editions, they are significantly better than ebooks.
2. To release more books at the same day as the publisher. The announcement of Reader Editions coincides with our announcement about Same-day releases. Our goal is to co-release a majority of academic resources from 5 of the major publishers the same day they are released by the publisher (we’ve been doing this since November but wanted to make sure we were able to consistently deliver before we made a public announcement). 
3. To offer better pricing. Where possible, we plan to have the lower production costs reflected in the price we sell the book for. We can’t always do this because we don’t always control prices. But where we can, we will.

My opinion of this explanation is overall positive. I would suggest that the company leave no room for any misinterpretation for what the customer is getting for her/his money. By making it crystal clear which is which and when possible a clear time table for any change in edition if it is known in advance. One advantage not mentioned but I think implied by the logic laid out explicitly is that this will free up tagger time for new and existing projects as they develop. One important to me and I am certain others is updating the Baylor Handbook series.

I have calmed down now and I for one will support this change. But, if the ship should be headed for the shoals I shall sound the alarm. Carry on FL I am with you. Thanks, for your years of innovation and service.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 1397
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 7:17 PM

On the one hand, I fear the slippery slope.

On the other hand, some many "Logos editions" I have in my library are very lacking in hyperlinks to other resources that would be expected. It's almost a roll of the dice when you get a new book anyway.

Also, I do understand that much of the tagging is probably not very useful for a lot resources, like the Armchair Theologians series as M.J. pointed out.

Posts 9185
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 7:31 PM

Analytical Bible Expositor by John G Butler has been a reader’s edition for the longest.  Only Bible references are hyperlinked.  It shows under commentaries but not much work went into it. 

DAL

Posts 1308
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 7:51 PM

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):

JT (alabama24):

I assume that if these migrate to Logos editions, the users will get the updated version?

This seems Similar to my suggestion of having a Vyrso title given to those who pre-order a book. 

These are Logos editions already so if we added functionality (i.e. updated it to a research edition) it would show up in the same way that current updates to Logos editions would show up automatically (e.g. a typo fix or new markup to support a new feature/dataset).

I thought that the reader editions were introduced to publish the resource faster and cheaper. If the reader edition later gets upgraded for free to a research edition, who pays for the additional work of extensive tagging?

Posts 9205
LogosEmployee

Mac:

May I ask what is tagged in the reader edition that is not tagged in the ebook edition?

What extra Marked Up are there in the reader edition that is searchable  which is not searchable in the ebook edition

Ben answered that here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/190556/1099021.aspx#1099021

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
As Bradley pointed out, ebooks are automatically generated based on what we are sent from the publisher. They get almost no extra work. They don't have page numbers, Bible citations are only tagged if they follow a certain format, internal linking doesn't work, and overall the formatting and layout is often subpar.

"eBook Editions" are converted from the input files with an automated process. Unambiguous Bible references are tagged, but ambiguous ones (e.g., "see note on v. 3") are often not. "Logos Reader" editions have a human QC pass that tags these references properly, makes the formatting consistent, etc. Thus, the reading experience will be improved, and you'll have greater accuracy when searching for Bible references.

Posts 3576
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 10:33 PM

Will the adoption of this strategy make bringing to Logos much anticipated resources like the missing Baylor Handbook series more likely? This was promised to be in the works. Another want would be BAGD. And other unicorns such as the return to the catalogue of Tov's Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible and the abandoned project to translate Ceslas Spicq's The Epistle to the Hebrews.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 119
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 9 2020 2:45 AM

From my point of view this is a positive development. I often need to read a book and end up buying a Kindle or dead-tree edition because it’s either not on Logos’ horizon or stuck in pre-pub purgatory. For me, ebooks don’t normally work as I do need page numbers and footnotes so I can cite accurately. Bringing editions to market quickly that have these features reliably will result in Faithlife getting more of my book spend. My major frustration to date has been the sheer amount of time it takes for books to become available in Logos. 

Posts 2285
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 9 2020 5:06 AM

GregW:

From my point of view this is a positive development. I often need to read a book and end up buying a Kindle or dead-tree edition because it’s either not on Logos’ horizon or stuck in pre-pub purgatory. For me, ebooks don’t normally work as I do need page numbers and footnotes so I can cite accurately. Bringing editions to market quickly that have these features reliably will result in Faithlife getting more of my book spend. My major frustration to date has been the sheer amount of time it takes for books to become available in Logos. 

I agree with this.  I prefer to have a logos reader edition of a book than a kindle book.

I just hope that someone with good communication skills can clear up the confusion.  One thing I have clearly learned from FL (since the switch from L3-L4) is how important it is to have a good marketing team.

Posts 1308
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 9 2020 9:15 AM

Mark:

I prefer to have a logos reader edition of a book than a kindle book.

I could not agree more!

Posts 2285
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 9 2020 9:31 AM

What adds to the confusion is that I thought e-books were originally supposed to be like kindle books.  So really, I suspect another marketing difficulty.  Thankfully, if they strategize wisely and have someone write clearly, they still at the moment have time to avoid a marketing blunder.

Posts 2938
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 9 2020 9:57 AM

Armin:

Mark:

I prefer to have a logos reader edition of a book than a kindle book.

I could not agree more!

I'd prefer a Faithlife ebook edition over Kindle.

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Seminary Student (VIU).
Christian Debate Forum --- Auferstanden! Blog

Posts 3576
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 9 2020 3:58 PM

Bump to Bradley, Ben or Phil. Please comment at least on the spirit of my question, if not on the entire law with all its details.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 430
danwdoo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 10 2020 6:45 AM

I understand the concept of the change and think it is reasonable. But I think Logos needs to do a lot of work to make simply reading books a much simpler and intuitive process. Right now the program and especially mobile apps (where most basic book reading would be done) are very poorly set up for book reading. At a minimum we need some kind of reading list (to read) that is easy to access from all devices and ways to sort and organize books for reading. I tried using the apps for reading in the past and gave up. It was just simpler on my laptop, which isn't a great reading experience either for an entire book. Hopefully we see some progress in this area with this new direction.

Posts 9205
LogosEmployee

Beloved Amodeo:

Bump to Bradley, Ben or Phil. Please comment at least on the spirit of my question, if not on the entire law with all its details.

If you're referring to https://community.logos.com/forums/p/190556/1099139.aspx#1099139 then I don't know the answers to any of those questions, sorry.

Posts 28019
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 10 2020 7:24 PM

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
Logos books are hand created and hand tagged. If we were to add markup, we would just "recycle" the resource (essentially the same thing we'd do to fix a typo). Research editions and reader editions are both created this way. The difference is that the reader editions don't receive the same level of markup as a research edition. So if we updated the markup it would still be a Logos book, it would just have the tagging level of a research edition.

Not sure if this was queried. But are you saying that a "recycled" Reader edition with additional markup would still be a Reader edition, and never become a Research edition?

Tagging all (my) existing resources as Research editions doesn't mean they satisfy the requirements. Surely, many should be tagged as Reader edition? Or will you respond to complaints of inadequate markup by downgrading them to Readers edition?

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):

There are two types of Logos books:

1. Research editions

2. Reader editions

And there is one type of ebook.

And existing collections that use the rule edition:l or edition:logos will find both types of books! So edition:logos-research may be needed.

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 3992
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 10 2020 9:45 PM

Dave Hooton:
Or will you respond to complaints of inadequate markup by downgrading them to Readers edition?

Not a lawyer, but I’d think that would be problematic having sold something claiming to be a Logos edition, then later downgrading it.

Inadequate markup can be fixed, but goodwill or good reputation, once lost, is harder to recover.

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 28019
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 11 2020 5:35 AM

PetahChristian:
Not a lawyer, but I’d think that would be problematic having sold something claiming to be a Logos edition

From Ben, I'm reading that both types are Logos editions. Perhaps "downgrading" is too strong a word for demoting it!

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

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