BUG - Repeatable: Automatic Update

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This post has 10 Replies | 1 Follower

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James Hudson | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2020 10:31 AM

Hi,

Something has broken in the Logos 8 for Windows automatic update. I've not been able to install the last 3 updates automatically - Every time I get a Error writing to disk [NB this is a Logos error, not an OS error!] - yet I can (and have had to do total reinstalls) to the same disk fine - the setup works the update doesn't.

My Logos install is in a custom location (external SSD drive, formatted as exFAT) - and this has worked well for a long time. Three installs ago (8.11 I think) the automatic update no longer works - all else is fine (works well, indexes fine, downloads books and even downloads the update - it is just the update throws an error when trying to install).

The way I now have to update is: copy current Documents, Data and User folders (over 100Gb) to another folder (on the same drive!), uninstall Logos, reinstall Logos, copy the folders back to the new Logos directory. This can take many hours to copy back and forth and is frustrating. But then Logos works fine until the next update arrives!

I'm assuming that there is an error with the update code to external exFAT drives, because a new install works fine and I have no problem on my Surface tablet with installs. (Both have same Windows 10 updates etc) and because it has always worked well before (e.g. for Logos 6 right up to Logos 8.10).

I attached the logs and error image to the thread I made last time about the updating error. [See https://community.logos.com/forums/t/191221.aspx]

Please could the developers review the code and see what changed that is causing the error.

Thanks.

James

(written whilst copying over 50000 items back to the Logos folder!)

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 16 2020 12:49 PM

Hi James

Sorry to hear of the problems you are having.

But it’s worth noting - if you are not already aware - that Logos is only officially supported on internal drives as per https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007506971-Logos-Minimum-System-Requirements

I have no idea if this is relevant to the problem you are experiencing but just wanted to make you aware.

Graham

Posts 562
Kevin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 16 2020 12:59 PM

If you move rather than copy, and keep it on the same volume, it should be very quick.

As for the problem, have you at all enabled Ransomware protection (controlled folder access) for the external drive? I have no way of testing right now if you actually can enable it for exFat, but I seem to recall an installer issue in the past related to it. https://www.techadvisor.co.uk/how-to/windows/enable-ransomware-protection-windows-10-3787294/

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 27 2020 12:42 PM

James Hudson:

My Logos install is in a custom location (external SSD drive, formatted as exFAT) - and this has worked well for a long time. Three installs ago (8.11 I think) the automatic update no longer works - all else is fine (works well, indexes fine, downloads books and even downloads the update - it is just the update throws an error when trying to install).

The way I now have to update is: copy current Documents, Data and User folders (over 100Gb) to another folder (on the same drive!), uninstall Logos, reinstall Logos, copy the folders back to the new Logos directory. This can take many hours to copy back and forth and is frustrating. But then Logos works fine until the next update arrives!

I'm assuming that there is an error with the update code to external exFAT drives, because a new install works fine and I have no problem on my Surface tablet with installs.

James,

I can't be sure, but since I had basically the same issue with an exFAT formatted external SSD, I backed its content up, reformatted to NTFS (which takes only seconds, unlike the copying around of 100+GB data) and restored to the SSD. With NTFS, update of the latest beta runs automatically, just as it used to. So I believe current Logos versions are not compatible with exFAT for some reason. Since you copy around the whole bunch of data anyway in your workaround, you may switch over to NTFS alternatively. 

Note that (as was referred to in his thread earlier) Logos is not intended or tested to run on external SSD, this is "experimental usage" regardless of file system. 

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 251
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 27 2020 1:59 PM

Thanks. I had already considered that option - however, I don't currently have sufficient space to fully backup the drive (hence the reason I have to backup to the same volume!).

I also prefer exFAT as I also use the drive for storage for my Linux system too.

I realise that currently Logos is not intended to work on external SSD (which is ridiculous by the way - hopefully this will change in Logos 9 for those of us with very large number of resources and have been trained in computing best practice to keep data separate from the OS).

Thanks for taking the time to reply. All help, suggestions are very much appreciated.

James

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 27 2020 4:21 PM

James Hudson:
I also prefer exFAT as I also use the drive for storage for my Linux system too.

External drive could be partitioned so one partition is NTFS for Logos/Verbum resources while another is exFAT. Open source has drivers so can mount NTFS partition as read only OR read/write by Linux. Windows can mount NTFS & exFAT partitions using drive letters.

James Hudson:
I realise that currently Logos is not intended to work on external SSD (which is ridiculous by the way - hopefully this will change in Logos 9 for those of us with very large number of resources and have been trained in computing best practice to keep data separate from the OS).

Logos wiki => Install in different folder or drive has warning against using an external drive for Logos and/or Verbum. Also includes for Windows: "It only works on NTFS formatted drives e.g. Windows 7+, so you must format removable drives as NTFS."

When 250 GB SSD inside older 27" iMac did not have enough storage space, relocated my purchased library Resources to external SSD using USB, which sometimes disconnected from macOS (Darwin hybrid kernel) causing Logos 8 to crash = stability warning confirmed.

Thankful for a friend helping me buy a refurbished 2019 iMac 27" 5K having 3.6 GHz Intel Core i9 with 16 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD, & Radeon Pro 580x for $ 2,719 => https://www.apple.com/shop/product/GMVTMLL/A/Refurbished-27-inch-iMac-37GHz-6-core-Intel-Core-i5-with-Retina-5K-display  Used external macOS 10.15 USB to boot up iMac to partition internal 1 TB SSD into three 333 GB partitions:

  • macOS 10.14 Mojave (macintosh HD)
  • macOS 10.15 Catalina
  • macStuff

Relocated Logos4 and Verbum folders (in my user's Application Support) to macStuff partition so one installation of Logos4 and Verbum is "shared" by my macOS 10.14 and macOS 10.15 bootable partitions (can only be used by one of the bootable partitions at a time, which avoids corruption potential). Having an administrator macOS account own macStuff partition prevents my Logos/Verbum user account from accidentally changing macStuff name (partition is stable for symbolic link albeit one folder could be renamed to break symbolic links)

Keep Smiling Smile

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 27 2020 8:32 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

James Hudson:
I realise that currently Logos is not intended to work on external SSD (which is ridiculous by the way - hopefully this will change in Logos 9 for those of us with very large number of resources and have been trained in computing best practice to keep data separate from the OS).

Logos wiki => Install in different folder or drive has warning against using an external drive for Logos and/or Verbum. Also includes for Windows: "It only works on NTFS formatted drives e.g. Windows 7+, so you must format removable drives as NTFS."

I clarified that "you must format as NTFS to avoid some known issues." for both Windows methods in the wiki  i.e covering potential use of exFAT

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 251
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 28 2020 1:50 AM

Hi, thanks for the replies - they are really appreciated.

However, I am a questioning person and like to fully understand things. I understand that Logos (and others) have written that it needs to have NTFS formatted partitions rather than exFat but don't understand why. So here are my two questions:

1. WHY is Logos dependent upon that particular format of a storage system? - in my knowledge and experience it is effectively an OS that has to do the physical read/writes to the drive (and hence needs appropriate drivers to help it do that -so it is not uncommon for OS to be called compatible/incompatible with drive formats). Software generally (except for a few disk management tools) makes a call to the OS to read and write data and the OS takes it from there. I understand that maximum file sizes are different and that's a key reason FAT32 is no longer used. I also understand that there may be slower/faster access depending upon how data is physically stored in sectors on the disk and if a journalling system is used. Can one of you tech whizzes explain why Logos is dependent on NTFS rather than exFAT? Microsoft Word etc is format agnostic - I can save on any format my OS is compatible with. Have Logos developers written their own low-level disk read/write drivers rather than depend on the OS (maybe they did that to try and speed up Logos???) - would just like to know - couldn't see anything in release notes about that? If not, can anyone say why there is a difference? [Genuinely trying to understand how this program works]

2. This thing that confuese me most about this which led me to initally believe this was a bug is the fact that it works fine from the separate install program but not the one coded into Logos. I would have thought that either both work or both don't! Furthermore, it worked fine from Logos 7 to most of the Logos 8 releases and Logos itself works fine now with the latest version running from an exFAT drive - it's only the update that fails when running from Logos. My iniital post asked what had changed - I was wondering whether there had been an inadvertent consequence of one of the other fixes. Can the developers use the same code that they use in the standalone install program which is (currently) working fine to install onto exFAT drive. What is different between the code snippets that may be causing this?

Thanks again for your help. Any insight would be greatfully received. Like I said, genuinely trying to find out how this mammoth piece of software functions, so I can make the best use out of it,

James

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 28 2020 6:07 AM

James Hudson:
If not, can anyone say why there is a difference?

Internet search for windows setup exfat fail finds some articles: e.g. Can't make a bootable drive from ISO using exFAT - GitHub , exFAT vs NTFS vs FAT32 - Features,Compatibility,Differences (exFAT lacks NTFS security/encryption) , Solved: Unable to Install XD on Windows (Exit Code:183 ... (Solution was changing installation destination for Adobe XD from exFAT to NTFS) , Forza Horizon 4 deployment failed : CrackSupport (Game using .NET framework could not install to exFAT; Logos & Verbum use .NET Framework).

Keep Smiling Smile

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 28 2020 5:07 PM

James Hudson:
Any insight would be greatfully received.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/fileio/filesystem-functionality-comparison  compares exFAT and NTFS features. The biggest difference is Security, and use of hard links (files) or soft links (symbolic links, junction links). Logos may not properly detect the file system in some cases (links don't work on exFAT). Windows (NTFS) could stall if Security is not what it expects.

EDIT: Faithlife stated elsewhere "...we've never tested with it [exFAT]. (And we're unlikely to invest any time in testing and debugging it, since external drives are not officially supported".

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 251
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 1 2020 1:14 PM

Thanks Dave and KS4J for taking the time to find some links.

As always, your input is appreciated.

Every blessing,

James

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