Apple Silicon

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This post has 64 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 15
Mike Prewitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 7:21 PM

David Wanat:

Doesn’t FL recommend some sort of graphics card for optimal performance on the desktop? Unless the iPad Pro has it and I missed it, I imagine there might be a performance decline if I’m not wrong (again)

Apple demonstrated macOS running on Apple silicon using their  A12Z Bionic SoC, which is the same chip used in the current iPad Pro. 

So, the iPad Pro has the performance to run a desktop-like version of Logos. It’s just that the frameworks and APIs are not identical. 

Posts 734
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 8:14 PM

I was referencing this: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007554992-Recommended-Hardware-and-Software

which recommends: 

  • 1GB+ DirectX11 Compatible Video Card

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Posts 15
Mike Prewitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2020 5:13 AM

David Wanat:

I was referencing this: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007554992-Recommended-Hardware-and-Software

which recommends: 

  • 1GB+ DirectX11 Compatible Video Card

The A12Z Bionic used in the iPad Pro comes with an eight-core CPU and eight-core graphics processor, which is capable of editing 4K videos, handling native 3D designing and performing augmented reality. 

It can handle running the desktop version of Logos.

Posts 734
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2020 6:09 AM

Ok, that’s what I wanted to know. Thanks

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Posts 17
Nick Stapleton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2020 9:25 AM

+1 for Full Logos on iPad. Apple's continued iPadOS development has demonstrated that the iPad is able to be a true computer replacement. Running the iPhone app on the iPad is dated and insufficient for those who want to do meaningful sermon prep or academic work on the iPad. 

I can't imagine FaithLife neglecting support for Apple Silicon with how many Mac users they have in their user base.

I hope Logos is ready to roll on Day 1 with Apple Silicon.

Posts 69
Robert le Clus | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2020 7:45 AM

It is very unlikely that Logos Bible Software will be running natively on Apple Silicon any time soon. And I speak here as an iOS developer who has been in the industry for 20 years. I am not a Logos developer (although I would love to be) so my answer here cannot be taken as definitive. Also, I am not Bob :D 

However, unless things have changed, Logos on both Mac and Windows is based on .NET code or Mono. Only the UI elements are native to each operating system. I have no idea (although I am sure I could find out) how well .NET code would run on ARM processors. The hope is that Rosetta 2 will allow any program to run on ARM without any performance issues but that is something I am sure Logos will be testing in the coming months.

Since Microsoft has no plans to move to ARM that we know of, making Mac Logos run natively on ARM would mean throwing away all the shared code they have now and rewriting everything for ARM. While that, in principle might allow full Logos on iPad (something I would LOVE) there might be issues that the mobile platform would have that are not relevant for a laptop or desktop. Pen support comes to mind but there are others. 

The time and money investment to convert the Mac Logos codebase to ARM would be massive and the question that Faithlife would have to ask is whether there is enough income being made from Mac users to justify that significant cost. I suspect not. 

At some point, having seen how Apple does business, Apple will drop all support for Rosetta 2 and Intel code on their devices. But that is unlikely to happen any time soon. Maybe in three or four years time perhaps. And at least for now, there are no plans to discontinue manufacturing or selling Intel-based Macs.

So I would NOT suggest you wait to buy Logos or Logos resources. The only person you would hurt in that case is yourself. It is likely that Logos will be around on Mac for many years to come, and I am sure if there are any performance issues with Rosetta 2 the team at Logos/Faithlife will fix them quickly! 

The idea of eventually having full Logos on an iPad is a dream come true for me, but until that happens I fully intend to support the team at Logos with my purchases and my "evangelism" of the software as they have blessed me in innumerable ways!

The new era of Apple Silicon looks amazing and as an iOS developer, it makes me excited and as an avid Logos Bible Software user I see no reason to fret or be dismayed! 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2020 8:36 AM

Robert le Clus:
I am not a Logos developer (although I would love to be)

Faithlife is hiring! If you get a job, make sure to tell them JT (Alabama24) sent you. Wink

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 734
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2020 8:53 AM

Interesting insights on ARM and software. So the future of Logos on Apple will probably depend on how easy or difficult Apple makes it for companies to develop both sides of the PC-Mac preference.

Hopefully it will go smoothly. While I jumped back to PC because a replacement Mac was too costly for the stats I needed, my 2013 rMBP was a solid machine, with only one kernel panic in the years I owned it.

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Posts 15
Mike Prewitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2020 9:12 AM

Robert le Clus:

However, unless things have changed, Logos on both Mac and Windows is based on .NET code or Mono. Only the UI elements are native to each operating system.

Since Mono already supports iOS on Apple Silicon (arm64), it shouldn't be that difficult for someone to have Mono support macOS 11 on arm64.

Robert le Clus:

The time and money investment to convert the Mac Logos codebase to ARM would be massive and the question that Faithlife would have to ask is whether there is enough income being made from Mac users to justify that significant cost. I suspect not. 

So I would NOT suggest you wait to buy Logos or Logos resources. The only person you would hurt in that case is yourself. It is likely that Logos will be around on Mac for many years to come, and I am sure if there are any performance issues with Rosetta 2 the team at Logos/Faithlife will fix them quickly! 

If Faithlife has no plans to support native Apple Silicon on macOS 11 and beyond, it means there is only a limited time period of 3-4 years remaining until Logos won't run on my new Apple Silicon Mac that I will be buying. I've invested several thousands of dollars in Logos resources, and I'd hate it if I could no longer use Logos. Why should I buy more Logos resources if there is a possibility that I won't be able to use them on my Macs in 3-4 years?

Faithlife must support arm64 macOS 11. I'm sure they are already  probably looking at the effort to migrate.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2020 2:22 PM

Mike Prewitt:
If Faithlife has no plans to support native Apple Silicon on macOS 11 and beyond, it means there is only a limited time period of 3-4 years remaining until Logos won't run on my new Apple Silicon Mac that I will be buying. I've invested several thousands of dollars in Logos resources, and I'd hate it if I could no longer use Logos. Why should I buy more Logos resources if there is a possibility that I won't be able to use them on my Macs in 3-4 years?

Currently Faithlife supports all Mac models that public can buy to run macOS 10.14 Mojave (OR newer). Currently Apple is not offering any Mac models with Apple Silicon primary processor for public purchase (only a development Mac Mini that has to be returned to Apple). Note: Touch Bar in recent MacBook Pro models is controlled by an Apple ARM processor (T1 & T2), which works fine. When Apple ships Apple Silicon Mac model(s) for public purchase, then hoping for public comment by Faithlife Corporation about natively supporting Logos & Verbum on Apple Silicon (anticipating applications being supported unless macOS on Apple Silicon causes crashes: e.g. a number of Logos & Verbum crashes on macOS 10.14.0 were fixed by macOS 10.14.1 release). 

Performance reduction of Rosetta 2 can be guessed by looking at Geekbench benchmarks => https://browser.geekbench.com/ios-benchmarks that shows native ARM benchmark is 1118 (single core) on A12Z while Intel benchmark running in Rosetta 2 is 811 (single core) => https://www.macrumors.com/guide/apple-silicon/ so emulation appears to reduce CPU performance by 28 % (humanly noticeable). Geekbench => https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks shows a number of usable Mac models having single core benchmark near 811 (so running Logos & Verbum on new Apple Silicon could feel like an older Mac model is being used until Faithlife can provide a fat binary application bundle, which includes code compilation for native ARM execution). The iOS benchmarks for A13 shows 18 % faster single core than A12Z (and 7 % faster than an Intel Core i9-9900K in a 27" iMac).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 12
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2020 3:11 PM

In response to the comments about using an iPad, but I find that the app.logos.com interface on my iPad Pro is very nice. I only use the app when I am downloading a book to read offline. If you want full Logos on your iPad and have not tried the web app lately, it has come a long way toward parity. 

Posts 17
Nick Stapleton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2020 3:25 PM

Agreed, Justin. The web app definitely is nice complement to the iPad app. I just wish resource citations could be copied. Would be great if resources could be downloaded locally, too. 

All that to say... I want a more robust iPad app!

Posts 69
Robert le Clus | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2020 11:36 PM

Keep in mind that the processor in question is an iPad processor. I have one in my iPad Pro. It is likely the processor in a Macbook Pro would be much better even if based on the same tech as the A12Z processor. The Mac Mini they are currently "selling" to devs is a little underpowered. It is likely Apple created a quick and dirty system that can get developers up and running quickly. One should not take it as gospel (see what I did there) that Apple Silicon will not perform well running x86 code. If the old Rosetta is anything to go by, it should run great!

Posts 69
Robert le Clus | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2020 11:51 PM

I guess it all depends on what you have and when you decide to upgrade :D I am running a 2014 Macbook Pro and Logos still runs great. I also have a Lenovo 12 inch machine with an i7 processor specifically for portability and it runs Logos very well. It's kind of the reason I would love to have desktop Logos running on an iPad. I love the portability of the Lenovo. And when I travel its much lighter. But only having 1 device is the ultimate! But one would have at 5 years to upgrade and if one buys the last Intel Mac that Apple sells in two years time you could probably extend that to seven years. 

Rosetta (the original one) was supporting in Mac operating systems for five years. If the same or better holds true, that's a fair amount of time for either a change in OS for us (going to Windows) or for Logos to support Arm64 natively. At the end of the day, its just speculation on our part until Faithlife and/or Bob gives us the official word! As a developer, I suspect it would be a fascinating project. 

So I think one should not get too crazy and abandon ship JUST yet. Even if worst comes to worst and Faithlife sunsets Mac support, there is still that other operating system. I know it borders on sacrilege to even think about it (I am a huge Mac fan and earn my bread and butter by it!) but if worst comes to worst we still have options! And you have 5 years to cushion the blow and save up for your wonderful new Windows laptop! 😲

But let's just wait for the official word and in the meantime keep using the software we love to minister to the saints and grow as believers! 

Posts 734
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2020 9:57 AM

Regarding the concern over what happens to intel Macs after the shift to ARM, I thought this article makes a good point: Bootcamp still works and the Mac hardware is likely to last a long time. Yes it’s not ideal for those who don’t want to shift from the macOS, but it’s a possibility. Thoughts?

edit and it would help if I added the link 🤦‍♂️ https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-life-for-obsolete-intel-macs-great-windows-or-linux-machines-for-years-to-come/

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Posts 69
Robert le Clus | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2020 11:36 AM

Except Bootcamp won't work on the ARM Macs. All BootCamp does is allow you to install Windows on the same harddrive as Mac and dual boot. Windows is still running on the bare Intel processor. While there is a Windows written for ARM the uptake of it is very low, because Windows doesn't have a Rosetta equivalent so if the Windows app is not written for ARM it won't run! 

Sure you COULD run Windows in Parallels or VirtualBox but unless those apps are running native on ARM you would be running a virtual machine through Rosetta 2 and then emulating the Intel processor. Logos would not run well under those circumstances! If it would run at all. It would be better to run Logos directly under Rosetta 2!

If you keep your old Mac around and you buy one soon before the last one is sold, you should be fine for a while. But eventually Apple will stop supporting your Mac with OS upgrades and you will be stuck. And as Logos moves on your software will lag behind. You won't be able to upgrade to the latest software. And of course your machine will get slower and slower as well, every time you upgrade. For example, my 2014 Macbook Pro runs great for now but I can't use the new SideCar feature with my iPad as my Mac is too old! In a few years time my Mac probably won't work anymore. I sold my previous Mac to my sister and she used it for a year or two and the discrete graphics card stopped working. It could not be repaired and she had to buy a new machine!

So one can take a gamble, but you might get left out in the cold. Eventually. But you might get quite a few years out of your machine and your Logos installation before that happens. Or it could be sooner. Only God knows for sure! Which is why ultimately we trust in Him alone!

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2020 12:06 PM

Robert le Clus:
Except Bootcamp won't work on the ARM Macs.

David is talking about current Macs being able to still be used into the future. 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 1513
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2020 12:41 PM

JT (alabama24):

or drop support for Mac altogether. 

Kicking to the curb tens of thousands of lifelong costumers who have invested (and will continue to invest) millions of dollars into Logos software? I can't see that happening.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2020 2:20 PM

David Wanat:
Regarding the concern over what happens to intel Macs after the shift to ARM, ...

Anticipating Apple to support Intel Macs for years after Apple stops selling them:

Note: OS X 10.4 Tiger could run mac OS 9 "Classic" applications on G4 Mac Mini => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Mini with Apple Support for almost eight years after 9.2.2 release. End of Apple Support meant any new issues would not be fixed, but older hardware could continue to run older software until hardware failed (similar to existing Libronix 3.0g being usable offline after security updates on Faithlife servers cut off online usability about a year before Faithlife shutdown Libronix servers).

Another thought is using Apple Trade-In toward an Apple Silicon Mac => https://www.apple.com/shop/trade-in OR OWC Trade-In, used Macs and Tablets => https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/Apple_Systems/Used/Macs_and_Tablets while Apple is still selling Intel Macs.

Keep Smiling Smile 

Posts 734
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2020 2:23 PM

JT (alabama24):

Robert le Clus:
Except Bootcamp won't work on the ARM Macs.

David is talking about current Macs being able to still be used into the future. 

That’s right. The current Intel Macs. I thought that those who were worried about their current hardware investment once ARM became the new normal 🙂

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