Page 1 of 1 (7 items)
This post has 6 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 35
Daniel Luke Gonzalez | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jul 4 2010 11:34 PM

While I was doing some studying in the book of Daniel, I came across a keyword used in chapter 12 in connection with the time prophecies. 

And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, 'How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?'” (Daniel 12:6, ESV)  

Now, I was trying to figure out what part of the previous vision(s) in Daniel the angel is talking about. If you do a lemma search on this word in Bibleworks 7, you will get the two other times that this word or a related form of this word occurs in the book of Daniel. In Logos 4, I get only the initial reference. How exactly do I perform a search that will find this word and it's related word forms like I did in Bibleworks?

 

Notes: These are the specific words that I am talking about. The references to Daniel are mentioned at the end of the third paragraph under these references. (note: not quoted here)

 

1768      פָּלָא (pālāʾ) be marvellous, wonderful. This denominative verb does not occur in the Qal.

Parent Noun 

1768a      פֶּלֶא (peleʾ) wonder.

1768b      פִּלְאִי (pilʾî) wonderful, incomprehensible.

1768c      מִפְלָאָה (miplāʾâ) wondrous work (Job 37:16).

R. Laird Harris, Robert Laird Harris, Gleason Leonard Archer and Bruce K. Waltke, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, electronic ed. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1999). 723.

 

 

Posts 25883
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 12:00 AM

Hi Daniel

Does the discussion at http://community.logos.com/forums/t/15169.aspx help with this?

Graham 

Posts 35
Daniel Luke Gonzalez | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 11:51 PM

Thank you for this link! The only problem is that it seems to suggest that there is no feature in Logos to perform the search I am talking about. I'll go ahead and post a suggestion for this to be a future feature. Thank you for the help.

Posts 35777
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 6 2010 12:58 AM

Daniel Luke Gonzalez:
The only problem is that it seems to suggest that there is no feature in Logos to perform the search I am talking about.

I'm quite sure it can be done. However, my first try was a to run a search on TWOT 1768 to see if it would also pick up 1768a and 1768b ... Unfortunately, I found I don't know how to get the search to work ... no matter how certain I am that I should be able to do it.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3578
steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 6 2010 11:01 AM

Daniel Luke Gonzalez:
Now, I was trying to figure out what part of the previous vision(s) in Daniel the angel is talking about.

i am not a scholar, but isn't Dan 12:1-3 describing the wonder that is referenced in Dan 12:6 ?

Daniel Luke Gonzalez:
if you do a lemma search on this word in Bibleworks 7, you will get the two other times that this word or a related form of this word occurs in the book of Daniel.

after digging into your question, i found no other occurrences of this lemma in Daniel. But when examining TWOT 1768 and finding the Strong's numbers for such, i found two other occurrences. (finding strong's numbers for the TWOT 1768a,b,c respectively)

Not having BW7, i could not see exactly what your other 2 occur. were. So if the above were the 2 other occurrences, then i would understand why L4 did not find them as they are a different lemma.

 

But relating to your post Subject: have you used the Bible Word Study tool to look for verb/noun of a word? (look under Grammatical Relationships)

 

i am sure this is not what you had in mind, but i found it interesting that the english translation was also found in the Aramaic portions of Daniel.

 

QLinks, Bibl2, LLR, Macros
Dell Insp 17-5748, i5, 1.7 GHz, 8G RAM, win 8.1

Posts 35
Daniel Luke Gonzalez | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 6 2010 12:00 PM

steve clark:
i am not a scholar, but isn't Dan 12:1-3 describing the wonder that is referenced in Dan 12:6 ?

Most people would think so because of the fact that this question occurs right after the end of the vision, but remember, there were no questions being asked prior to this point in time. Therefore, I believe that the angel is using the word wonder in a way to indicate which portion of the prophecy he is referring to. Notice that there are three indicators that can help us establish what wonder he is referring to. The first one is the word wonder. We read in TWOT,

 

Preponderantly both the verb and substantive refer to the acts of God, designating either cosmic wonders or historical achievements on behalf of Israel. That is, in the Bible the root plʾ, refers to things that are unusual, beyond human capabilities.

R. Laird Harris, Robert Laird Harris, Gleason Leonard Archer and Bruce K. Waltke, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, electronic ed. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1999). 723.

 

Now, this would seem to indicate that Daniel 12:1-3 is the wonder that the angel is referring to, but if we read the next verse we'll see something very interesting,

And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished. (Daniel 12:7 ESV)

Now, this does not seem to indicate something done by God. Why would God "[shatter]...the holy people"? Notice that we have also gained two other pieces of information to help us indicate the position of this "wonder." We now have the time prophecy, "time, times, and half a time (generally seen as a year, two years, and half a year in Jewish reckoning)," along with the description of destroying the saints, or holy people. Now notice Daniel 7:25 and you'll see that this wonder that is mentioned is referring to this "Bold King," or "Little Horn (see Daniel 7:8)" power that persecutes the saints. Now let us look at the references I mentioned that Bibleworks brought up.

The reference in Dan 8:24 and 11:36 to the diabolical apocalyptic figure who hatches “incredible schemes” or speaks “incredible blasphemies” illustrates this. We have seen, then, that when plʾ, refers to man it means unsolvable, suprarational, incredible.

R. Laird Harris, Robert Laird Harris, Gleason Leonard Archer and Bruce K. Waltke, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, electronic ed. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1999). 723.

Now, if we remember that the word in Daniel 12:6 is connected with the words found in Daniel 8:24 and Daniel 11:36, we start to realize something. (Note: I myself have no training in Hebrew as of yet, but I'll be starting my BA in Theology this fall. One of my first classes is Hebrew 101 so my interpretation of this verse may change by the end of the year.) Now this would have amazing implications. This connection basically throws the whole preterist interpretation of Daniel 8:14 into chaos. Now it seems that you cannot isolate the 2300 evenings and mornings away from the 1260 (the equivalent of the "times, time and dividing of time" see NET note at 7:25 and NET note from Revelation 12:14, quoted below*), 1290, and 1335 day prophecy. They are all connected in some way. Therefore, all of these time prophecies occurred, or will occur either in sequence or around the same time. This greatly helps in interpreting when this time prophecies have occurred or will occur in time. I still have a lot of research to go into, so I am not saying that this is the correct interpretation. I am saying though, is that all of these verses are connected somehow. 

Note: I wasn't able to get this to flow properly in my train of thought, but they are still valuable in connecting these verses together.

Daniel 8:9-14 which is connected with Daniel 8:24-26

*The parallel statement in Rev 12:6 suggests that the phrase a time, times, and half a time equals 1,260 days (three and a half years of 360 days each).

Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2006; 2006). Note from Revelation 12:14

Posts 3578
steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 6 2010 12:27 PM

ahhh, so BW7 associated the other lemma for the other 2 verses. Hope this has been helpful in finding different ways to use L4.

i don't know if using 2 different lemmas to form a conclusion is prudent here. Also keep in mind that Chapter 8 occurred some 15 years earlier. But is was interesting to hear your thoughts.

Thanks for the challenge of using L4 in different ways

QLinks, Bibl2, LLR, Macros
Dell Insp 17-5748, i5, 1.7 GHz, 8G RAM, win 8.1

Page 1 of 1 (7 items) | RSS