Logos 9 discounts?

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This post has 129 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 1115
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 26 2020 9:57 PM

PetahChristian:

It might be financially profitable, but is there an emotional or a spiritual cost for you and a FL rep to go through lots of hoops to undo all that?

I agree with you. When I just called FL, I told them I am not looking for the last cent. I would be happy with a compromise solution. 

My wish would be for FL to come up with an approach that ensures that purchasing a larger package is not more expensive than a step-by-step upgrade. There must be some solution so that this does not happen each time a major upgrade comes out. I still remember it from 2018.

Posts 5706
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 26 2020 10:42 PM

PetahChristian:

Armin:
Unfortunately, now I have to go through lots of hoops to get my upgrade to Ultimate undone and do the step-by-step upgrade, reuse the Mobile Ed coupons,.....

It might be financially profitable, but is there an emotional or a spiritual cost for you and a FL rep to go through lots of hoops to undo all that?

When I am ready to purchase i wil simply contact my sales rep and go through them. Like everyone I want to pay the best possible price but as you say PetahChristian there are times when it's not worth it even though it may be permissible to do it.

Posts 28
Peter Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 12:49 AM

Kaleb, many thanks Big Smile

Posts 1046
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 3:57 AM

Armin:

Maybe my thinking is too simplistic, but if FL assigns a discount to each resource and this discount gets larger with the larger package, then the problem should be solved. I saved 14% when upgrading my German base package using a step-by-step upgrade compared to going directly to the bundle that I wanted. The path that I chose was based on the discount percentage, so it might not even have been the ideal upgrade path. 

Unfortunately, now I have to go through lots of hoops to get my upgrade to Ultimate undone and do the step-by-step upgrade, reuse the Mobile Ed coupons,.....

If they define the dynamic pricing as a simple linear equation and with what you said it is probably probably satisfying that condition. But we already know it is not linear, otherwise it doesnt matter if you buy it all at once or separately.

the next simple formula would be an affine transformation. Ie linear with a constant offset. That “constant” might depends on other factors so different packages can have different “constants”. This constant Basically is a penalty to not buy all at once. Ie an incentive for you to buy more than you need. (However in the case of Ultimate people mentioned here, it is not a “penalty“.)

also, remember that even if we are talking about affine transformation, the weights for different titles can be different (I imagine different publishers/authors get a different deal with them.) In that case what you said is like requiring the weight times individual price is monotonic decreasing.

and it will be more complicated when we are talking about 2 overlapping, but one is not a superset or another (such as a reformed gold and a standard gold), the increasing bigger discount algorithm just won’t work here.

Lastly, it might be non-linear.

my bet is that it is some sort of affine transformation, which makes most sense to me. A simpler formula formula such as a linear one with all weights equal, and monotonic decreasing in the above sense would have the most desirable property to us, but many things may prohibit them to do so, including negotiation with publishers and incentive to buy bigger.

Posts 1072
Dale E Heath | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 4:57 AM

I bit the bullet and spent 6 hours purchasing Ultimate in 52 individual steps, tacking on the 4 Feature upgrades along the way. It was very much worth my time. I'll do it again in 2 years, unless they go back to giving us a bonus one time discount for buying a large bundle all at once.Big Smile I could probably do it in 2 hours, now that I know the sequence. Please don't ask me to detail it. It's pretty much what has already been discussed. A few of the steps (upgrades) were hidden away. Time for bed. Good rollout FL, after the initial slowdown.Drinks

Posts 297
JC54 | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 5:00 AM

Dale E Heath:
I bit the bullet and spent 6 hours purchasing Ultimate in 52 individual steps,

No details. Just to confirm: what was you leading principle? Low rank packages first (so always first starter, then bronze etc). Or high percentage discount first? In that case: which percentage do you look at?

And conggratulations on Ultimate and your hard work

Posts 1962
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 6:26 AM

Dale E Heath:

I bit the bullet and spent 6 hours purchasing Ultimate in 52 individual steps, tacking on the 4 Feature upgrades along the way. It was very much worth my time. I'll do it again in 2 years, unless they go back to giving us a bonus one time discount for buying a large bundle all at once.Big Smile I could probably do it in 2 hours, now that I know the sequence. Please don't ask me to detail it. It's pretty much what has already been discussed. A few of the steps (upgrades) were hidden away. Time for bed. Good rollout FL, after the initial slowdown.Drinks

How much did you save at the end vs. buying ultimate directly?

Posts 1115
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 6:38 AM

Dale E Heath:

I bit the bullet and spent 6 hours purchasing Ultimate in 52 individual steps, tacking on the 4 Feature upgrades along the way. It was very much worth my time. I'll do it again in 2 years, unless they go back to giving us a bonus one time discount for buying a large bundle all at once.Big Smile I could probably do it in 2 hours, now that I know the sequence. Please don't ask me to detail it. It's pretty much what has already been discussed. A few of the steps (upgrades) were hidden away. Time for bed. Good rollout FL, after the initial slowdown.Drinks

This really is frustrating. We should not need to spend 6 hours trying to figure out how to upgrade.

For my German base packages, I saved about ~14% upgrading based on the highest discount displayed on the Logos website.

Posts 997
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 8:55 AM

Armin:

I did the stepwise upgrade for the German base packages. It saved me $136.

So I will contact sales to return my purchase of a single English base package and figure out the best upgrade path.

My plan was to try the step-up method in purchasing some Lutheran packages, but when I purchased Lutheran Starter, the price for Bronze didn't go down a much as I expected and my total price will actually be higher if I purchase Bronze. Usually the step-up methods works fine for me but doesn't seem to be working in this case, so I remain at Starter.

Posts 495
Jonathan Bradley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 9:03 AM

Is theReformed Expository Commentary worth it if I can get it for $50?

Posts 1115
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 9:26 AM

Kiyah:

My plan was to try the step-up method in purchasing some Lutheran packages, but when I purchased Lutheran Starter, the price for Bronze didn't go down a much as I expected and my total price will actually be higher if I purchase Bronze. Usually the step-up methods works fine for me but doesn't seem to be working in this case, so I remain at Starter.

I assume that the upgrade path needs to be based on purchasing the package with the highest discount percentage first. That's what I did and with each of the 5 steps that I did saved me money.

Posts 997
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 9:30 AM

Armin:

Kiyah:

My plan was to try the step-up method in purchasing some Lutheran packages, but when I purchased Lutheran Starter, the price for Bronze didn't go down a much as I expected and my total price will actually be higher if I purchase Bronze. Usually the step-up methods works fine for me but doesn't seem to be working in this case, so I remain at Starter.

I assume that the upgrade path needs to be based on purchasing the package with the highest discount percentage first. That's what I did and with each of the 5 steps that I did saved me money.

The discounts displayed as higher to lower when you went up the levels. I was showing a 95% discount off of Starter and a 94% discount off of Bronze before I purchased. Now that I've purchased Starter, the discount for Bronze has dropped to 90%.

Posts 3052
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 9:40 AM

Jonathan Bradley:

Is the Reformed Expository Commentary worth it if I can get it for $50?

In my opinion, yes. I've paid nearly that much for individual volumes in REC and been happy about it.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 1115
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 10:18 AM

Kiyah:

The discounts displayed as higher to lower when you went up the levels. I was showing a 95% discount off of Starter and a 94% discount off of Bronze before I purchased. Now that I've purchased Starter, the discount for Bronze has dropped to 90%.

I am sorry if I misled you with my advice. I believe if there is a discount difference of only 1%point, this might happen. I don't remember what the differences were when I upgraded my German packages, but I believe the differences were around 5-10% points.

Posts 1072
Dale E Heath | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 11:37 AM

The upgrade path using multiple steps was developed many years ago by Mark Barnes, when there were a lot less options. So, it was a little easier. I think it only works well today if you're goal is Collectors or Ultimate, not a single library. The path will depend a lot on your starting point, your total library collection. My path was different than what your path will be. I used 2 tools, Logos 9 & Verbum 9, until I got near the end, when I had to innovate to get Verbum at the least cost. It was a lot of work and entailed quite a bit of luck. There were several times when it didn't want to give me dynamic pricing and/or the 20% discount. I had to go back and forth several times. The technique involves choosing the lowest cost within the highest discount. Sometimes the next higher library is cheaper or only a few cents more. It's not an exact science. At the beginning, you'll spend the most time for the least amount of savings. I didn't monitor what my final price was going to be very often, just once in awhile until I got close to the end. I really don't want to get FL too interested in this, but I'm afaid it's too late. You're right, we shouldn't have to do this. I'm reluctant to disclose my savings. Let's just say it was worth it. BTW, I like working with numbers. Sudoku, etc. I sweetened the deal by using a credit card that gave a 5% return when using PayPal.

Posts 1046
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 11:52 AM

Dale E Heath:

The upgrade path using multiple steps was developed many years ago by Mark Barnes, when there were a lot less options. So, it was a little easier. I think it only works well today if you're goal is Collectors or Ultimate, not a single library. The path will depend a lot on your starting point, your total library collection. My path was different than what your path will be. I used 2 tools, Logos 9 & Verbum 9, until I got near the end, when I had to innovate to get Verbum at the least cost. It was a lot of work and entailed quite a bit of luck. There were several times when it didn't want to give me dynamic pricing and/or the 20% discount. I had to go back and forth several times. The technique involves choosing the lowest cost within the highest discount. Sometimes the next higher library is cheaper or only a few cents more. It's not an exact science. At the beginning, you'll spend the most time for the least amount of savings. I didn't monitor what my final price was going to be very often, just once in awhile until I got close to the end. I really don't want to get FL too interested in this, but I'm afaid it's too late. You're right, we shouldn't have to do this. I'm reluctant to disclose my savings. Let's just say it was worth it. BTW, I like working with numbers. Sudoku, etc. I sweetened the deal by using a credit card that gave a 5% return when using PayPal.

Interesting. Do you know if he already reverse engineer their dynamic pricing formula? It seems to be that may be their formula is actually the simplest natural choice.

I don’t think you need to conceal this saving from Faithlife. Everything you do is according to the information they revealed publicly. You just took a path more indirect than they expect but as their formula is general (Not designed for a particular path in mind but should be always profitable to them regardless your initial state.)

I always wanted to reverse engineer their dynamic pricing formula. I’ll test my idea soon to see if it is indeed the simplest case.

By the way, they recently changed their API to make it more difficult to programmatically obtain the “children“ of a package. But I already have a workaround on that.

if you got the formula and have access to all price information and also any packages‘ ”children”, then you can run simulations to project your price for different paths and choose the cheapest one.

it would be fun.

in case it is not the simplest formula (which has only one constant that is determinable from existing information), we can still do this if we have enough independent users’ Dynamic pricing numbers. (If it is just an affine transformation that has finite dof.) in that case life enough people provide me the data it can be done.

Posts 997
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 11:57 AM

Armin:

Kiyah:

The discounts displayed as higher to lower when you went up the levels. I was showing a 95% discount off of Starter and a 94% discount off of Bronze before I purchased. Now that I've purchased Starter, the discount for Bronze has dropped to 90%.

I am sorry if I misled you with my advice. I believe if there is a discount difference of only 1%point, this might happen. I don't remember what the differences were when I upgraded my German packages, but I believe the differences were around 5-10% points.

No worries. It wasn't just your advice. I had done the step-up method many times before and it usually works out. Not sure why it's not working this time. But hey maybe God is trying to tell me to save my money anyway. lol

Posts 1046
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2020 12:09 PM

Kiyah:

Armin:

Kiyah:

The discounts displayed as higher to lower when you went up the levels. I was showing a 95% discount off of Starter and a 94% discount off of Bronze before I purchased. Now that I've purchased Starter, the discount for Bronze has dropped to 90%.

I am sorry if I misled you with my advice. I believe if there is a discount difference of only 1%point, this might happen. I don't remember what the differences were when I upgraded my German packages, but I believe the differences were around 5-10% points.

No worries. It wasn't just your advice. I had done the step-up method many times before and it usually works out. Not sure why it's not working this time. But hey maybe God is trying to tell me to save my money anyway. lol

You could contact customer support for a refund. In their website a simple email request suffices.

IMO it is not unethical to do that, but do know that you only have 1 single chance of refund per product.

Posts 3915
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2020 7:25 AM

Friedrich:

Friedrich:

Kaleb Cuevas:

Friedrich:

I'm a bit curious why some of my base packages have a 14% discount, not fifteen.

Hey Friedrich,

Can you share which packages you are experiencing this with?

Sure, I haven't gone through each package, but only at the ones I was looking at so far. And I need to amend my statement: 19% (not 14%, with the connect discount):

Standard Bronze, Gold, Diamond, Portfolio

Anglican Starter, Silver, Diamond

Methodist Starter, Bronze, Platinum

Verbum Bronze, Diamond

the above are after looking at each complete line. I have not gone through others yet, but I know that Orthodox had shown that, too. I can go through the rest. There doesn't seem to be a specific package problem as each line is affected at varying/differing levels.

Baptist Starter, Bronze, Platinum, Diamond, Portfolio

Lutheran Silver

Messianic Bronze, Platinum

Orthodox Bronze, Gold, Platinum, Diamond

Pentecostal Starter, Gold, Portfolio

Reformed: (none)

SDA: (interestingly, Starter and bronze showed 98% and 99% respectively, the rest, 20%)

Verbum Eastern: Bronze, Silver

Verbum Ordinariate: Starter, Bronze, Gold

Logos Academic: (Essentials 96%, Standard 97%, Premium 98%) 

Verbum Academic (Essentials "owned", Standard 95%, Premium 96%)

Features: Starter 93%, the rest, 5%.

Kaleb, any feedback on what is causing the 19% instead of 20%? all of those listed above were packages listed to me as only have a 19% discount instead of the advertised 20%. I have since bought several of those, including packages listed at 19%. Would this mean I get a slight increase in my discount retroactively once this is adjusted?

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 1046
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2020 7:28 AM

I’m guessing it is round off error.

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