Questions for Greek scholars / those who do work with the Greek

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Posts 91
Rick Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jul 10 2010 6:05 PM

I am in grad school in a 4th semester Greek class and at this point we are working on the process of Exegesis.  

 

There are so many tools in the package I have (platinum) and I have no idea what is available to me, or how to really get my value return on investment on them.  I'm curious if anyone out there who does exegesis work could tell me what tools I have, what would be useful, and some good layouts for doing some of the work listed below.  (I am just using the basic layout, but I am sure there are better layouts for the type of work I am doing.  I"d also like some ideas on how to create a good visual filter. I'd really like to create a filter for every word, but I'm sure that would be overwhelming (all the different verb types, preps, etc..pretty much parsing info.  Another HUGE area I need some help with is figuring out the structure of a Greek sentence, the object compliment, modifiers, different types of phrases, etc.)

I am interested in any of the tools that will help me to do the following things

 

Sentence diagramming (I know about the ability to create the diagram, I'm interested in tools that would help me understand the structure of a passage so that I can construct the diagram. Or perhaps sample diagrams so that I can compare my work.)

 

Grammatical analysis

Structural layout of the greek clauses

word stuides

validation work

 

Any hints, or wisdom you can provide on how best to do this would be great!

 

Thanks so much!

Posts 222
Justin Cofer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 9:09 PM

The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: Expansions and Annotations is helpful in figuring out the structure of a Greek sentence, the object compliment, modifiers, different types of phrases

 

Posts 222
Justin Cofer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 9:13 PM

Another good resource for the same reason is the Lexham Clausal Outlines of the Greek New Testament

 

Posts 222
Justin Cofer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 9:16 PM

The Cascadia Syntax Graphs are also good for figuring out the structure of a Greek sentence, the object compliment, modifiers, different types of phrases, etc.)

 

Posts 222
Justin Cofer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 9:24 PM

 

There is a resource called Diagrammatical Analysis that teaches you how to formally diagram.

 

 

There is no set of formal diagrams as pictured above in Logos.  There is an individual that has formally diagrammed Acts-Rev and sells them.  I can't provide the link since its against forum rules however if you google the phrase "greek nt diagrams," you should find it.

Posts 91
Rick Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 10:46 PM

Thanks for all the feedback. What is the major differences between these top three tools?

 

Also do you have any suggestions for how to set up my visual filters, and what a good way to layout my screen is for doing this sort of work?

 

(for example what resources do you suggest leaving open? NASV interlinear, NA27 interlinear, etc?  Thanks.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 11:44 PM

Rick Smith:

Thanks for all the feedback. What is the major differences between these top three tools?

 

Also do you have any suggestions for how to set up my visual filters, and what a good way to layout my screen is for doing this sort of work?

 

(for example what resources do you suggest leaving open? NASV interlinear, NA27 interlinear, etc?  Thanks.

Put your NA27 on the left, your notes, BDAG, grammar on the right.  If you want a translation, put it UNDERNEATH your NA27.  Never, NEVER, NEVER use an interlinear.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 91
Rick Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 11:48 PM

Really? why no interlinear?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 11:53 PM

Rick Smith:
Really? why no interlinear?

Because George is George Big Smile

Seriously, George has a point. It is very easy to use Logos' tools as a wheelchair rather than a crutch - you'll never get walking on your own. I take a slightly more moderate view than George. If you are trying to learn Greek on your own, go as far as you can on your own then use the interlinear as you would the answer sheet at the back of the text. And remember that there can be errors in the interlinear just like typos elsewhere.

Oops George, am I in trouble?Embarrassed

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 91
Rick Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 12:00 AM

Thanks! (and I wish I was just learning it on my 'own'!) I'm in a 4th semester Greek course right now...(a summer course at that - it's killer!) :)

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 12:05 AM

Rick Smith:

Really? why no interlinear?

Note that I didn't say "Don't use a translation."  Use 5-6 translations if you desire, just don't have the translation "in your face" when you're trying to read the text.  I'll guarantee that the English will unduly influence you if you do use an interlinear.  Put the translation underneath and refer to it when really needed or when you want to confirm the conclusion you already reached.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 12:08 AM

Rick Smith:

Thanks! (and I wish I was just learning it on my 'own'!) I'm in a 4th semester Greek course right now...(a summer course at that - it's killer!) :)

Cheer up !  You're just in beginning Greek.  It will get better after you have spent some time reading lots of texts.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1875
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 12:22 AM

MJ. Smith:
It is very easy to use Logos' tools as a wheelchair rather than a crutch - you'll never get walking on your own.

Very well put. I couldn't agree more.

At best an interlinear is a bit like having an instant gloss on the verse you are reading. All too often, however, it flatters to deceive – you can fool yourself into thinking that you understand more Greek or Hebrew than you really do.

Moreover, they can be misleading – especially reverse interlinears. Sometimes the word which is being "translated" has a more usual meaning which is different from the one which the translators have chosen in their English version.

Furthermore, using an interlinear/reverse-interlinear hinders rather than assists your own memorisation of vocabulary and grammar.

I agree with George.

George Somsel:
If you want a translation, put it UNDERNEATH your NA27.  Never, NEVER, NEVER use an interlinear.

And I would add, if you want to use an English translation underneath, choose as literal a translation as you can get – e.g. NASB, ESV – rather than a dynamic equivalent translation – e.g. NIV, NLT.

The other tools are useful to save time, as long as you really understand how they work and what they are doing. In other words, use them only when you can achieve the same result without them. For example, I frequently use the Discourse Analysis tools but I could manage to do the same job without them; it would just take forever, so I use them and am very thankful for them. (God bless Steve Runge.)

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Posts 91
Rick Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 12:29 AM

I agree.

 

If you put the NA 27 on the left, what about putting one of the Lexham tools on the right? structure layout, clausal layout, etc?

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 12:36 AM

Alan Macgregor:

George Somsel:
If you want a translation, put it UNDERNEATH your NA27.  Never, NEVER, NEVER use an interlinear.

And I would add, if you want to use an English translation underneath, choose as literal a translation as you can get – e.g. NASB, ESV – rather than a dynamic equivalent translation – e.g. NIV, NLT.

A "literal" translation can sometimes be quite misleading.  The phrase "Give glory to God ..." which has been noted on my home page as meaning "tell the truth" isn't quite "tell the truth" either.  It is something more like "Confess ..."  See Jn 9.24 or compare Josh 7.19.  Sometimes the dynamic translations get the sense more correct.  I would say that you should use both.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 12:40 AM

Rick Smith:

I agree.

 

If you put the NA 27 on the left, what about putting one of the Lexham tools on the right? structure layout, clausal layout, etc?

While these can sometimes be helpful, aren't you really somewhat defeating the purpose of learning the original language by using them too much?  You're allowing someone else's interpretation to influence your understanding.  Of course, more often than not it will be correct since I'm inclined to think that any translation with differs markedly from all others had better have some very good arguments in its favor.  We do, however, find from time to time that a passage has been basically misunderstood for centuries.  Most of us though will not be the ones to set the record straight.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 222
Justin Cofer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 5:05 AM

I agree with George.....  A structure layout diagram is likely to be straightforward for say John 1:1, but in the Pauline epistles, Paul often strings participle after participle.  Diagrams, like commentaries and translations, can be interpretive....  They are useful if you get stuck, but try to compare them with each other, and remember they can be interpretive.

Posts 1680
Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 5:47 AM

You could also keep your copy of Pocket Dictionary for the Study of New Testament Greek on the shortcut bar if you find it helpful for quick reference. If you end up making a lot of visual filters you can put folders inside of folders in the favorites tool to organize them for quick reference. 

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

Posts 19223
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 5:56 AM

Rick Smith:

do you have any suggestions for how to set up my visual filters

The wiki page on Visual Filters might be of some help. It has a couple of useful filter examples. (Someone should add more!)

There's also a forum thread with some suggestions of people's favorite visual filters: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6637.aspx

Posts 15805
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 12 2010 11:15 PM

George Somsel:

Put your NA27 on the left, your notes, BDAG, grammar on the right.  If you want a translation, put it UNDERNEATH your NA27.

Windows Logos has pop-up grammatical analysis at bottom of panel when mouse hovers over a word.  In contrast, Logos 4 Mac pop-up text appears at bottom of window (under all panels) => placing NA27 bottom left could be helpful.

Keep Smiling Smile

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