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This post has 19 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 351
xnman | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Oct 30 2020 9:35 AM

A bit of a negative. I like Logos and I understand that Logos needs to make money and sells everything in "Packages" and puts some things in the "higher cost packages" to get people to buy them. I came from WS and no matter how many books I owned... I was arbitrarily stuck in "Basic" for whatever reason. I did choose to upgrade to Starter mainly because of the 50% discount given to WS owners. 

So, here I am in Starter package... and poorer than most folks on here and never could afford higher priced packages...  so here I am with Sermon Builder and not Sermon Manager...  In fact there are many such things in Logos. While I understand making money.... I find the pricing outrageous.  I remember when Bill Gates came out with Windows 3.0. He could have priced it at $400 or more. He owned the market back then. Instead he priced it at $49. He said he'd get more money by getting more people on windows (great marketing ploy because it worked). And he did. I think this would be a good lesson for Logos to consider doing. People like me, who can't afford thousands of dollars to upgrade, might consider upgrading for a cheaper and fairer price. And I would think there would be a lot of people in my category.  But then, if Logos is all about money and doesn't have a heart and not trying to help people get into God's Word... well that appearance does not set well with anyone. Just my 2 cents....  but I'm like Paul.... my friends may go to hell, but at least I've told them about Jesus Christ.  Hope I don't get banned for writing this. 

xn = Christan  man=man

Posts 719
Kevin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 9:51 AM

There is always going to be something just out of our price range we want, what is important is how we deal with it.

Paul didn't have Sermon Manager either, but he did have everything God decided he needed.

Posts 102
The Flanary's | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 9:56 AM

I came from WS and initially suffered from "sticker shock" as well, not to mention a resistance to change.
 However, Word search will continue to function until Operating Systems update past its current capabilities, even after that there will probably be some techo-workarounds on the net. Once those stop working then WS will be officially dead and we would have had nothing, but Faithlife Logos took us on free of charge and is fully unlocking our libraries. The base engine for Logos is free so we will always have access to our books. That is a win for us. I can recall software in the past, especially in games, that go out of business and you're left with nothing, thats why you agree to a EULA on installation.

 I understand budgets well, but, if you never spend another penny you will still have your library and the features you were given.

Now, there are 2 options that may be useful to you
1. Faithlife Connect- Has 3 packages that vary in library and features

2. Payment Plans- One option I used with Logos that I never used with Wordearch is payment plans, and they are reasonable.

But, if they're out of your budget, you still have everything you had before the transition, and more.

Posts 363
Bob Soule | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 9:59 AM

Have you looked at just buying a feature upgrade? 

Posts 102
The Flanary's | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 10:01 AM

Just a quick add: I don't know if you can look up old comments, but I assure you my early comments weren't the nicest even though I tried to be nice.

Two things changed my outlook. The wonderful community here that is always available to help and learning the power of what I had been given. (For me that began with the Quickstart guides and Morris Proctor's free webinar series)

Posts 1791
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 10:12 AM

Unfortunately bills have to be paid. And we are free to not pay Faithlife's bills if we choose not to. But to create the datasets they need to do the "magic", it takes detailed work. And Faithlife has decided that they will support all their customers via a toll free number for life. And that takes more money.

For me, I find that joining Faithlife connect and "renting" these resources makes more financial sense than "buying" the resources, and so I joined "Logos Now" years ago, which has now merged into Faithlife connect. I don't see my actual plan listed, but you can call sales to see what they can do for you.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 2297
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 10:19 AM

xnman:
if Logos is all about money and doesn't have a heart

There is a difference between "all about" and "strategically profitable". I have a stack of discs from software that did not remain profitable. Logos has many different levels of resources and features. I don't resent those who are able to purchase more than I am able. I don't want to "shame" Logos into giving away what THEY HAVE PAID to produce. If they move into "negative profits" I would be forced to add my DVDs of Logos resources to the stack of unsupported and defunct programs. As Bob has written, there are many free alternatives (with lesser features) if you find 

xnman:
I find the pricing outrageous

Feel free to use one of those alternatives, but please don't accuse Faith life of being "all about the money". Some of us find value in investing in a sustainable company.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 27
Peter Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 10:29 AM

Xnman, I would agree with those who are suggesting Connect. The value is really high there if buying the more expensive packages is not an option.

You get absolutely all the features with the Essentials level and two free Mobile Ed courses per year (6 months access per course)

Plus once you have the Connect subscription the starter libraries are very good value for money - don't be put off by the name! $35 I think and 20% off that presently for Connect subscribers.

 

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 11:49 AM

xnman:
Hope I don't get banned for writing this. 

You have to really troll-ify to get banned. Usually, after the Logosians have had their supper.

Most of what you're observing is true; assigning motives (money, no heart), then no. But I wouldn't get excited at the packages ... they seem to try to get you just enough hooked to pull the buy-trigger. But at a certain price-point (hefty), they ARE bargains. The key is to get enough resources, for the dynamic price to come down.

Getting resources cheaper in Logos largely involves patience ... waiting for this and that sale ... a publisher blowout, and the specialty packages (not so much bloat).  I don't think I've ever bought an upgrade package. I have just what I want (5,000 books over about 15 years). And works great.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 5008
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 5:59 PM

Peter Ryan:
$35 I think and 20% off that presently for Connect subscribers.

The extra 5% discount is only for Connect (and Verbum Now) subscribers who subscribed before Logos/Verbum 9 was released.

Posts 5576
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 11:15 PM

xnman:
He could have priced it at $400 or more. He owned the market back then. Instead he priced it at $49. He said he'd get more money by getting more people on windows (great marketing ploy because it worked).

It was a model that worked for his business but FL has to pay royalties to book publishers - they are not going to accept Logos selling a packge of their books for $49.

xnman:
But then, if Logos is all about money and doesn't have a heart and not trying to help people get into God's Word... well that appearance does not set well with anyone.

FL is not all about money but it does enable the company to have be there for us all next week, next month, next year and into following decades of our life (depending upon the milage we have already done).

xnman:
Hope I don't get banned for writing this. 

While I will defend FL on this point, there is much I have said about their approach to other things and I have been open and honest and said much more than you have and I'm still here posting. FL are not a greedy company, there are simply trying to ensure they are looking after their employees and are here for the long term.

I  hope we see more posts from you xnman.

Posts 27
Peter Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2020 1:01 AM

SineNomine:

The extra 5% discount is only for Connect (and Verbum Now) subscribers who subscribed before Logos/Verbum 9 was released.

You’re absolutely right - thanks for that correction Yes

Posts 1046
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2020 2:53 PM

xnman:

A bit of a negative. I like Logos and I understand that Logos needs to make money and sells everything in "Packages" and puts some things in the "higher cost packages" to get people to buy them. I came from WS and no matter how many books I owned... I was arbitrarily stuck in "Basic" for whatever reason. I did choose to upgrade to Starter mainly because of the 50% discount given to WS owners. 

So, here I am in Starter package... and poorer than most folks on here and never could afford higher priced packages...  so here I am with Sermon Builder and not Sermon Manager...  In fact there are many such things in Logos. While I understand making money.... I find the pricing outrageous.  I remember when Bill Gates came out with Windows 3.0. He could have priced it at $400 or more. He owned the market back then. Instead he priced it at $49. He said he'd get more money by getting more people on windows (great marketing ploy because it worked). And he did. I think this would be a good lesson for Logos to consider doing. People like me, who can't afford thousands of dollars to upgrade, might consider upgrading for a cheaper and fairer price. And I would think there would be a lot of people in my category.  But then, if Logos is all about money and doesn't have a heart and not trying to help people get into God's Word... well that appearance does not set well with anyone. Just my 2 cents....  but I'm like Paul.... my friends may go to hell, but at least I've told them about Jesus Christ.  Hope I don't get banned for writing this. 

I understand the frustration for people new to Logos and not understand their pricing strategies. I think over time you'll make more peace with it.

I just want to point out something minimal to frame the picture correctly.

In Logos, your "OS", "Windows", is the Logos engine. It actually is free. (It is better than the free Windows 10 because the manufacturer has paid and transferred that cost to you.) They didn't advertise it but after a few months people can obtain the Logos 9 engine for free.

Now, here's the tricky part in Logos: some features might require extensive "tagging", sold in the form of a "dataset". Making an analogy of physical book sale, this is no different from selling you a printed concordance. You may say, "all those bible words are already in my bible, your concordance is just a feature that reshuffle things, why are you charging me for content I own?" That might sound ridiculous, but essentially is what happening to datasets. It is a labour intensive, creative (as in you created something of value) process, that cannot be done without $$ and obviously they need to make it profitable to stay in business (or not deliver that feature at all if it would have been free.)

So, a feature in Logos is more like a software running in Windows. Logos is your "OS", but on top of it you might want to expand its functionality and add "Word", "Excel", etc. that is produced by the same company but they charge you extra if you need that.

So in this perspective, if you find the pricing outrageous (which is not a surprise from someone coming from WORDSearch), then just don't buy it. It means the extra convenient gained does not worth your money. Speaking in the economical sense, the potential time saved via this feature does not worth that much.

And in a certain sense it is true that you don't need that. Without Sermon Manager you thrive all these years. Why bother you can't get it now it is available but not affordable? As in many new toys in the market, you really don't need it. In some cases, owning it is a trade off between time and money. In many more cases, it is just a waste of time and money.

Posts 351
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2020 3:50 PM

I hope I didn't give the wrong message. I do like Logos. In fact I had written to WS and asked for many of the functions that Logos has.

Already, Logos is my "goto" Bible program and tool.  It's just that the pricing in Logos was a bit of "sticker shock". 

Thanks to all for your kind remarks.

xn = Christan  man=man

Posts 1046
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2020 6:08 PM

xnman:

Already, Logos is my "goto" Bible program and tool.  It's just that the pricing in Logos was a bit of "sticker shock

Probably more people feel the same than the reply here may suggests. I understand rationally why, but I still feel like that, especially after buying Logos 8 (I have a few Logos 8 packages and its full feature set already), the full feature set for 9 alone still cost me ~$192 (even with academic pricing.)

May be Logos is trying to make us feel poor so that we can "enter the kingdom" ;)

Posts 303
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2020 6:38 PM

xnman:
It's just that the pricing in Logos was a bit of "sticker shock". 

I remember thinking the same thing when I first started buying Logos library packages years ago. But I found that after purchasing a number of library packages over the years, the price of upgrading becomes incredibly cheap. For this Logos upgrade I paid less that $1 per book in average, and some of the resources I received were higher dollar items - like the full Carta package. If you learn the art of purchasing items at the right time in the right packages the return on investment is very good.
I have been subscribed to Faithlife Connect since it first was offered so I don't pay extra for upgrades, which I find is a great approach for me. Generally I don't like software subscriptions, but in the tools that I use every day, I find that value returned is worth the price paid. 

Posts 2477
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2020 6:47 PM

There is definitely the potential to spend a lot of money getting the resources you want.  As others have already stated, building a library can take some time.  However, you can get 3 free books every month (Logos, Verbum and faithlife ebooks).  In addition, there are usually several add ons that are heavily discounted.  Logos also offers a number of sales throughout the year. 

I would recommend visiting the forums regularly as that is how I usually find about them.

Posts 693
Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2020 7:42 PM

For those feeling sticker shock... And may think or listen to comments about it being new to Logos - I date back with Logos quite far... I remember the first version of Libronix coming out - so I've been around a long time with Logos...

I've seen a lot of good and some bad in how features were removed that people paid for, pricing has, especially in recent years, has been questioned either publicly or privately and how some in the forums are ultra fanboy - to the point of making people who feel different, feel less than... (One of the main reasons, I rarely come on here any longer)

Does Logos offer a very good product? Yes. Can they be highly priced? absolutely!

Is it worth it? Depends on the individual needs...

Personally, I was hoping for the normal 25% discount on Product launches and that we have seen numerous times in the past on package upgrades. Unfortunately, it is limited to 15% for the Logos 9 Discount. Many have and will jump on the upgrade for that price, my personal option allows me to wait and see.... There are a few Features and resources that interest me, but not enough for the currently discounted price.

When contemplating to upgrade or not - does it contain materials you need or that you really want to add to you library? Are the features and resources that you feel fall into the need category, worth the cost? Do the included resources make it worth the cost? Or is it just the shiny new toy? A few questions that I apply to my decision in upgrading or not.

For me, the package that interests me most, well to be honest, doesn't contain enough for the cost right now. At the traditional 25%, I would likely jump in, because at that price I feel I am getting a good price on what I will use and desire in the package.

---And yes, I have had Silver Reformed in my cart a few times and have hovered over the button to purchase a few times or more.... But, when opening another tab to review the Features and Resources, I have wound up removing it from my cart.

Posts 74
John Simpson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2020 8:24 PM

I used Wordsearch for over 20 years because of the simplicity of use and the low cost of the resources. I was able to add books from other STEP publishers, Galaxie, Doxa, Quickverse, Bible Explorer and Bible Navigator.

But the low cost model had some disadvantages. Often, the books didn't link properly or had random errors. The program crashed occasionally and the indexing of large libraries was incomplete. The mobile app was disappointing. The lack of continuity between some MyWSB.com purchases and the desktop program was confusing. Wordsearch 12 was released mid 2018 and last updated in late 2019. In 2018 Wordsearch started working on a 64-bit upgrade for Mac Catalina but never released a stable version.

When Bibleworks was discontinued in 2018 I was concerned Wordsearch might eventually follow the same path and my investment would someday become obsolete. When Lifeway closed their stores in 2019 I wondered if Wordsearch was far behind. Fortunately, Wordsearch transitioned to Logos instead of just shutting down. My books were transferred for free to a software that will be around for a long time.

At first I was confused about all the amazing features that people talked about. Faithlife had provided us with equivalent features to what we had in Wordsearch. For free, I could continue with that level. But if I wanted to move beyond what I had in Wordsearch and get the full benefit of Logos, I would need to invest in an upgrade. It took me a while to figure that out and I'm thankful the 50% discount was extended and was still around.

Wordsearch still works for those who want to stick with it or users can rebuild libraries with one of the other Bible software companies. Logos has a different pricing model than Wordsearch and it will take some time to learn the best deal strategies. But I am grateful for the transition to Logos when I consider what might have happened.

Posts 19134
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2020 10:47 PM

xnman:
While I understand making money.... I find the pricing outrageous.

Thread => Logos Is Too Expensive started on 28 Jul 2012, which had recent replies in 2020 (includes profit margin insights along with "cost" of free support, which includes Faithlife fixing typographical resource issues at no cost to user). Another thread => Why So Expensive?

Thankful for a personal book Bible helping me appreciate effort & value of resource tagging by Faithlife => American Standard Version 1901 - Personal Bible without Chapter and Verse #'s Thankful for a later Logos release having ability to hide chapter & verse numbering in most Bibles.

Thankful for amazing Bible Study capabilities available for $ 0.00 (my demonstration account order total) along with a purchased library. Actually been somewhat surprised by amount of demonstration account usage (primarily Bible reading and searching).

Keep Smiling Smile

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