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William | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jul 12 2010 11:49 PM

This post is probably off topic here but I did not feel like I should open it up in General or one of the other forums. 

I am wanting to read the the word in the original languages.  I have purchased and am slowly working through BBG by Mounce.  I have just finished with the "Noun system."  I have also purchased these videos.  ( l love them). 

I am however really torn in all my studies.  I am reading so much negativity about using RI's.  The way I read some of the greek scholars in here indicates that I should never even have an English bible open if I want to read in Greek.  I have even been reading that a lexicon (BDAG) for example has translational issues because of the theology of its authors.  If we can never trust a combination of ESV, NASB, NIV, or BDAG, LN, BDB for translation help how can we really do any type of work in Biblical Greek? 

I guess I just want to know how I can best work toward knowing the Greek text and remain faithful to God? 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2010 1:34 AM

William Bingham:
I just want to know how I can best work toward knowing the Greek text

look to http://nblchurch.org/LinkedFiles/Education/LearningKoineGreek-Presentation.pdf for some suggestions.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2010 2:07 AM

Martha,

thanks! that PDF was full of good tips!

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2010 4:06 AM

William Bingham:
I am however really torn in all my studies.  I am reading so much negativity about using RI's.

When learning a language, an interlinear will hinder far more than it will help. This is true because—no matter how hard you try—you cannot avoid reading the English instead of the Greek, Hebrew, or whatever.

William Bingham:
The way I read some of the greek scholars in here indicates that I should never even have an English bible open if I want to read in Greek.

Probably good advice for the same reason that an interlinear is counterproductive.

William Bingham:
I have even been reading that a lexicon (BDAG) for example has translational issues because of the theology of its authors.

I haven't hear this about BDAG, but any human work is subject to the presuppositions of its authors.

William Bingham:
If we can never trust a combination of ESV, NASB, NIV, or BDAG, LN, BDB for translation help how can we really do any type of work in Biblical Greek? 

Comparing translations is a good practice, but you should do the ground work yourself first. In the early videos of Learn to Use Hebrew, Dr Heiser has some very helpful material on conducting Word Studies. I haven't looked at the Greek videos, so I don't know whether they contain such information or not.

William Bingham:
I guess I just want to know how I can best work toward knowing the Greek text and remain faithful to God? 

An excellent ambition. Keep up the good work.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2010 4:11 AM

William Bingham:
I guess I just want to know how I can best work toward knowing the Greek text and remain faithful to God? 

Begin and end every Greek language study session with prayer.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2010 4:17 AM

Rosie Perera:
Begin and end every Greek language study session with prayer.

Or any other element of Bible Study for that matter.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2010 4:26 AM

Jack Caviness:

Rosie Perera:
Begin and end every Greek language study session with prayer.

Or any other element of Bible Study for that matter.

Absolutely! It's something we perhaps need to be reminded of even more in this digital age. I know I do. It's more natural to sit down with your Bible in your quiet corner and start your Bible study session with prayer. But when we're in front of the computer it is very easy to leave our spiritual selves behind and enter into it entirely with our head, and in a rush. Taking time to mull things over and pray as we study is a good discipline to try to replicate from the "old-fashioned" way in the Logos way. Maybe that's one good side benefit from the fact that Logos is still kind of slow at some things... Smile

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2010 6:09 AM

Jack Caviness:
When learning a language, an interlinear will hinder far more than it will help. This is true because—no matter how hard you try—you cannot avoid reading the English instead of the Greek, Hebrew, or whatever.

 

That was the opinion of my teacher as well.

 

William, we all learn differently, but for me it took an actual classroom setting, with homework, assignments and the competition that comes from working with others. YMMV

 

 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2010 9:32 AM

Terry Poperszky:
That was the opinion of my teacher as well.

Our final exam had a true/false question that we had not used an interlinear, analytical lexicon, etc. An answer that indicated you had used such resources was an automatic failure for the semester.

Posts 1145
William | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2010 9:53 AM

Jack Caviness:
Our final exam had a true/false question that we had not used an interlinear, analytical lexicon, etc. An answer that indicated you had used such resources was an automatic failure for the semester.

DTS recommends getting BDAG (a lexicon) for Greek 103  second semester beginning Greek.  So how can one school say get this lexicon yet another school (teacher) will fail you for doing so?  What books were you allowed to use during the semester? 

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2010 10:22 AM

William Bingham:

Jack Caviness:
Our final exam had a true/false question that we had not used an interlinear, analytical lexicon, etc. An answer that indicated you had used such resources was an automatic failure for the semester.

DTS recommends getting BDAG (a lexicon) for Greek 103  second semester beginning Greek.  So how can one school say get this lexicon yet another school (teacher) will fail you for doing so?  What books were you allowed to use during the semester? 

BDAG is neither an interlinear nor an analytical lexicon.

EDIT an analytical lexicon lists every inflected form in the NT and then tells you what the lemma and morphology is. It is a way to bypass learning how to decline a noun and parse a verb.

Posts 48
David Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2010 10:32 AM

This is the plan which I'm following;

I purchased from AMG Spiros Zodhiates-narrated Hadjiantoniou grammar a long time ago. I actually started using it about a year and half ago. This grammar is available in electronic form with Logos, as well as the workbook. The grammar is written by a Greek man and the pronunciation is modern Greek. From AMG, you can also get the NT read by Dr. Z in modern Greek for when you need to work on hearing and pronunciation skills.

An alternate method is for you to Google "Biblical Language Center" and review the work by Dr. Randal Buth, who is working on reconstructed Greek. (Like modern, but with (according to him) a few sounds which are different (η, υ, οι). If I did not already have the AMG materials and want to pursue some modern Greek, I would most likely have pursued this option. He also has immersion courses taught in Israel. His site has You-tube links to some class setting and audio of parts of John's first letter being read in "reconstructed." Sounds much like modern to me, through, and I could adapt to it easily.

What you do needs to involve reading, speaking, writing, and hearing to engage all the senses. It will help with language study. 

I will be done with my basic grammar by the end of August and ready for some of these Greek resources which I have been purchasing on pre-pub. And, spending hours listening to Dr. Z reading the NT trough my iPod.

 

iMac 21.5 inch • iPhone 3GS 

Software Engineer καὶ μαθητῆς τοῦ λόγου τοῦ θεοῦ

 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2010 11:08 AM

Kevin Becker:

BDAG is neither an interlinear nor an analytical lexicon.

EDIT an analytical lexicon lists every inflected form in the NT and then tells you what the lemma and morphology is. It is a way to bypass learning how to decline a noun and parse a verb.

Thank you, Kevin. You answered before I got back to this forum. I should have been a bit more clear there. BDAG was a require text, but crutches were taboo. These videos will show you how to use the tools available in Logos and give you some elements of the grammar, but they will not bring you to an independent knowledge of the language. Because of past training, I can read & understand the GNT, but I can only use the tools available in Logos to study the BHS. That is the major difference between traditional language study and these videos.

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David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 26 2010 10:24 PM

Kevin Becker:

BDAG is neither an interlinear nor an analytical lexicon.

EDIT an analytical lexicon lists every inflected form in the NT and then tells you what the lemma and morphology is. It is a way to bypass learning how to decline a noun and parse a verb.

Kevin,

When William started this thread he voiced one of my concerns; i.e., I am pretty sure that the choice of "semantic domain" is subjective. In other words, resources which select a particular semantic domain for a manuscript item should be viewed as a crutch.   Is that assessment correct?

On the other hand, is morphology 99% cut and dried or are there subjective elements with which we should be concerned?  I have located interesting differences between ESV, NASB, and NRSV interlinears just examining imperative visual filters.  What % of morphology is objective?

David

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 26 2010 11:17 PM

DavidEgolf:
I am pretty sure that the choice of "semantic domain" is subjective.

In the same sense that glosses in dictionaries are i.e. semantic domain is descriptive of the language and would be most accurate if the domains were also given in the original language.

DavidEgolf:
is morphology 99% cut and dried or are there subjective elements with which we should be concerned

There is ambiguity in morphology - not enough to make communication difficult but enough to keep the scholars busy. However, morphology is not very meaningful apart from semantics - and semantics varies by location, purpose, time, social class ... well, yes, morphology can too

DavidEgolf:
What % of morphology is objective?

Because language is neither static nor a closed system, I liken your question to "What percentage of a rainbow is green?" Different people will give you different answers. The wisest will point out the question has no fixed answer - different people and cultures will change the name of the color at different points in the spectrum - only the center holds.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 27 2010 4:15 AM

DavidEgolf:

When William started this thread he voiced one of my concerns; i.e., I am pretty sure that the choice of "semantic domain" is subjective. In other words, resources which select a particular semantic domain for a manuscript item should be viewed as a crutch.   Is that assessment correct?

On the other hand, is morphology 99% cut and dried or are there subjective elements with which we should be concerned?  I have located interesting differences between ESV, NASB, and NRSV interlinears just examining imperative visual filters.  What % of morphology is objective?

MJ has given you some good answers. When it comes to the example uses of a word in BDAG or any other lexicon they should be treated as suggestions in a commentary. BDAG is not immune to error but is a very valuable work.

I suspect that the differences you've found between the ESV, NASB, and NRSV is not so much a difference in morphology (Greek is very consistent with how words change across cases etc.) but of alignment, i.e. sometimes the Greek verb gets placed under the English helper instead of the main verb. Hopefully as Logos continues to improve these inconsistencies can be ironed out. The Logos morphology is reasonably good at giving you both main options when the morphology of a word is not clear. Of course there will be instances when a scholar comes up with a reason why the traditional wisdom about a particular form is wrong but I would expect those to be uncommon or rare.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 27 2010 5:16 AM

Kevin Becker:
sometimes the Greek verb gets placed under the English helper instead of the main verb. Hopefully as Logos continues to improve these inconsistencies can be ironed out.

Sometimes this placement will vary even within the same translation (interlinear).

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