New store button in Logos 9.5 beta 1

I agree. For a product for which people have already poured so much money into resources, having a button in our face to invite us to spend more money is not very classy. It's one thing to have searches that turn up books which might be useful offer an opportunity to buy them, or to have the lock icons in the Lexham Research Commentaries with links to purchase those resources. It would be OK to have the Store command on a menu (probably best on the three dots menu, near "Use Logos Online"). But don't clutter the Toolbar with a Store button, please.

Graham Criddle said:

As per the release notes, Logos 9.5 beta 1 has:

Toolbar

• Added a new Store button to the Toolbar next to the “Close All” button.

I think I understand why this has been done but I don't think it is a good idea.

I purchase resources primarily through the Logos.com website and don't expect to do so from within the app itself - I see a purchase activity and a study activity as different.

Completely agree. I was actually coming to post a new thread to say this myself when I saw this thread. There are already several ways to access or purchase locked resources inside the app. And in those scenarios, we're provided with resources relevant to our activity at the moment. A general store button on the toolbar serves no real value in my opinion, and wastes very valuable real estate space on the toolbar.

Please reconsider this change.

Thanks.

I agree with everyone's sentiment here.

Faithlife, please remove or relocate the Store icon as suggested above.

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

...some users really appreciate the convenience and contextual nature of finding and buying a book without leaving the app. The ability to shop for individual resources by their metadata is something powerful that can't be replicated on Logos.com.

Hi Phil, I have no doubt that this is correct and I can certainly see benefits to users. Nonetheless, please note the not-unreasonable requests for user control over where and whether to place the Store tab.

As much of the concern is taking up valuable screen space, Logos can easily save a little bit of space by using the Logos logo as the home button.

See Faithlife Feeback: https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/use-the-logos-logo-on-top-left-as-the-home-button 

And just in case there is an informal poll, I also do not like having the store icon. At least having the option of removing it would be preferable.

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

James Hudson said:

especially as we can't yet have icons for menus etc!

See Tip: Save Shortcuts Space with Folders and Unicode Icons.

Hi Phil,

Yes thanks, I was aware of the workaround (I was one of the people that replied appreciatively to that post). However, it is still only a workaround, not fully customizable.

I am surprised that with a number of popular posts and feedback about having far, far, far, far too little space on the tool bar, that instead of addressing this, you actually added more clutter to it to make it worse! Why?!! What about that HUGE mammoth of a functionless logo on the top. When is that going to be removed or given a real purpose?

I think that you shouldn't be too concerned with profit at the expense of user experience. Happy customers are free sales reps!

I also think you need a dedicated UX/UI manager who is neither a programmer nor a business manager who is focused on profit.

But mainly, to reinterate , please find ways to give us MORE and not LESS real estate on the screen.

Thanks, as always, for listening and responding.

James

Hi Phil,

Can we make everyone happy by making the Logos logo into the Store button?

MJ. Smith said:

Whatever you chose, a major consideration should be that the newer user NOT be able to hide essential functions

That is true, but I expect 'newer users' wouldn't go to the customizing options (in preferences - if that's where it ends up), but even so there could then be a 'restore defaults' option at the bottom of the options page?????

MJ. Smith said:

There is good reason for toolbars to rarely be configurable

Most popular programs have configurable toolbars such as MS Office!

James

MJ. Smith said:

James Hudson said:

Most popular programs have configurable toolbars such as MS Office!

I think we have a vocabulary problem here ... my MS Office does not have the application toolbar configurable ... or if it does, it never disclosed it to Help. It does have a configurable Quick Access Toolbar which is another approach LF could take.. It does allow the customization of the ribbon which is below the toolbar. This is what I suspect you were thinking of. I would not be keen on FL taking up the real estate for a ribbon.

If my Help search was inaccurate, I would love to be pointed to the ability to customize the toolbar proper -- I am no expert on MS products.

In File-Options-Customize Ribbon - you can add/remove any of a multitude of icons to the Ribbon/toolbar. Alternatively, right click on an empty space and click customise ribbon.

Here is a screenshot from Word:

Hope that helps,

James

I'm really sorry MJ - just read your post again..it seems you know about the ribbon!

Apologies!

PS The quick access bar is also highly configurable too - more akin to what you are thinking!?

[PS on my system - due to the height of the Logos Logo, it takes up just as much space as my Office Ribbon though!]

James

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

Gordon Jones said:

Nonetheless, please note the not-unreasonable requests for user control over where and whether to place the Store tab.

Noted. We're discussing what that could look like. Two possible approaches:

1. Different collapsing behavior that prioritizes more important items as you run out of space
2. Ability to customize the toolbar by hiding certain items

If #2, should we do it based on aggregate usage? Anything fewer than x% of users use should be hideable? Everything should be hideable based on individual user preferences? By what principles would we allow hiding the Store button but not the Sync button, the Profile menu, the Close All button, the Home button, or the Logos logo? I can see users in many cases saying they would like to be able to hide these because they never use them. If we do come up with something here, I'd like it to be principled and consistent rather than making a quick reaction to a change that might end up being okay after a few weeks of adjustment.

Thanks for voicing your feedback. We'll keep listening.

I'd like a second row for shortcuts.

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

By what principles would we allow hiding the Store button but not the Sync button, the Profile menu, the Close All button, the Home button, or the Logos logo?

If all I ever use Logos/Verbum for is to study stuff, I will never use the Store button.

The Store button is for shopping.

Shopping can help with studying the Bible, but shopping is not part of studying the Bible, especially if I already have a Bible.

The Home screen, the Library icon, the Factbook button, the GO bar, the Docs button, the Guides button, the Tools button, my personal shortcuts, the Sync button, the Layouts button, and the Close All button all have their place(s) within the process of studying the Bible. The account icon lets me sign in and out, and clicking the triple dots gives me access to a bunch of things related to studying.

The Store button is the only clickable anything on that line that doesn't have a place within the process of studying as such.

Here is a much better idea:

Logos could create a whole row of buttons marketing various FL products and then create a setting to turn them on for all the people who want or need them as some have indicated above.

I wonder how many Logos users want this new feature. 

I don't want to publicly say that it is little more than another annoying marketing ploy that we are supposed to like, but then, it publicly is.

One more marketing annoyance in an expensive Bible application may have more to do with objections than the loss of toolbar real estate which I could grudgingly tolerate.

GaoLu said:

I don't want to publicly say that it is little more than another annoying marketing ploy that we are supposed to like, but then, it publicly is.

I think you might have publicly said it. But more seriously, this conversation goes way, way back. FL sells stuff (helps with the payroll). Customers squealed like stuck pigs, each time FL moved forward with sell-stuff on their religious Bible-study software. So, they move the needle a bit each time, arguing it's gentile-practice. You'll notice (a) optional is too obvious and (b) gee, this is so hard to figure out. I'm waiting for helpful advert popups with prayer-lists. 

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

Gordon Jones said:

Nonetheless, please note the not-unreasonable requests for user control over where and whether to place the Store tab.

Noted. We're discussing what that could look like. Two possible approaches:

1. Different collapsing behavior that prioritizes more important items as you run out of space
2. Ability to customize the toolbar by hiding certain items

If #2, should we do it based on aggregate usage? Anything fewer than x% of users use should be hideable? Everything should be hideable based on individual user preferences? By what principles would we allow hiding the Store button but not the Sync button, the Profile menu, the Close All button, the Home button, or the Logos logo? I can see users in many cases saying they would like to be able to hide these because they never use them. If we do come up with something here, I'd like it to be principled and consistent rather than making a quick reaction to a change that might end up being okay after a few weeks of adjustment.

Thanks for voicing your feedback. We'll keep listening.

I am not a beta tester but have been following this thread with great interest.  I share the concerns expressed in this thread about the Store button and I hope users are allowed to hide it or it is removed from the program’s main toolbar.  However, in its other location within the Library, I can understand how it would be beneficial to some users.

I believe the ideal solution is toolbar customization in which everything on the main toolbar is hideable based on individual user preference.

If Faithlife simply removes the Store button from the main toolbar, the objections expressed in this thread about this particular button would be resolved, but what happens later when something else just as objectionable or more is added to the toolbar?  Allowing everything on the toolbar to be hideable based on individual user preference would not only solve this issue but any future one. 

Toolbar customization would also solve the problem of the main toolbar already being overcrowded.  If given the opportunity, I would hide the Store button if it remains as well as the Home, Factbook, Sync, and Profile Menu buttons since I never use any of these.  I would also hide the huge Logos logo. 

I would especially hide the Go button and use the keyboard enter key instead which is already possible.  This very distracting bright green Go button hurts my eyes and since its introduction in Logos 8, I’ve had to hang a small cloth strip from the top of my monitor to cover the button while I use the program. 

Thank you for the opportunity to provide this feedback.  I hope it helps.

SineNomine said:

Just in case it helps, in Dark Mode in Verbum, that button is grey.

Thank you SineNomine.  I tried the Dark Application Theme and found I cannot use it.  For me, it was uncomfortable to view, but I’m glad those who requested it now have that option.

I like the original System Application Theme.  If I could just hide those toolbar buttons I don’t use (including the Store button) and the one that hurts my eyes (Go button), I would have absolutely no complaints.

If I do ever have a need for in-app purchasing, the Store tab in the Library is easy to find.

James Hudson said:

MJ. Smith said:

Whatever you chose, a major consideration should be that the newer user NOT be able to hide essential functions

That is true, but I expect 'newer users' wouldn't go to the customizing options (in preferences - if that's where it ends up), but even so there could then be a 'restore defaults' option at the bottom of the options page?????

MJ. Smith said:

There is good reason for toolbars to rarely be configurable

Most popular programs have configurable toolbars such as MS Office!

James

If Faithlife decides to add toolbar customization, I would not want to be limited in what I could choose to hide.  As for new users, I agree with James’ comments.  New users would most likely want to become well acquainted with all elements on the toolbar before deciding what to customize.  I especially like the idea of a “restore defaults” option.   Perhaps within Program Settings a section could be added titled “Toolbar” with everything on the main toolbar listed along with the “restore defaults” option James suggests. 

Accordance has allowed everything on their main toolbar to be hideable for a long time and it appears to be very popular with their users.  Within their toolbar customizing menu they include a “Reset” button to restore all default toolbar items.

I do not believe toolbar customization (everything on the toolbar hideable based on individual user preference) would present any insurmountable training obstacles.  Every new Logos version that comes out requires new training videos and some effort to learn.  In addition, in the last couple of years whenever an especially significant software update has occurred (8.7 Context Menu, 9.1 Factbook) Morris Proctor has made available free webinar videos nearly simultaneous with the update release.

I recently asked John Fallahee of LearnLogos.com who has trained thousands of Logos users of all levels from brand new to advanced how toolbar customization might affect his job as a trainer.  John graciously allowed me to share his reply which reads as follows, "Yes, training would be impacted, but only the starting point would be different.  Instead of starting with a standard interface, I would simply begin with the ‘recommended interface’ and proceed to show key features.  I am in full support of customization."

One final thought: I object to the addition of the Store button to the toolbar, but I don’t fault Faithlife for looking for ways to increase sales and maintain a profitable business.  I not only believe toolbar customization is the ideal solution, I also believe it could so significantly increase customer satisfaction and attract so many new users that it might result in a level of increased sales for Faithlife which far exceeds anything achieved through the addition of an unpopular Store button to the toolbar.

I hope this is helpful.