Effect of Windows 11 on operation of LOGOS?

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This post has 138 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 2859
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2021 1:29 PM

According to the little app, my PC is fine and good to go for 11. I don't really see all that much utility in the new operating systems. There's more gingerbread for how the computer presents things to you. It's interface and frankly I still function closer to a Windows 7 style with a Mac Dock type program. It is perfect for me. I hope I can retain it.  

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 3883
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2021 2:16 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Microsoft hasn't even released any Insider Preview builds of Windows 11 yet, so there's really not much that can be reported at this stage.

Of course, the other issue is how long will LOGOS support Windows 10?  Will they target the same 2025 date as Microsoft?

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 274
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2021 5:41 PM

I bet if you can run windows 10 than 11 will be fine. That is useless they need the new Bios secure thing. A lot of people don't have that.

Posts 9172
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2021 5:59 PM

Floyd Johnson:

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Microsoft hasn't even released any Insider Preview builds of Windows 11 yet, so there's really not much that can be reported at this stage.

Of course, the other issue is how long will LOGOS support Windows 10?  Will they target the same 2025 date as Microsoft?

By that time I’ll either have a Mac Book Pro or a nice Windows upgrade ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ‘Œ

DAL

Posts 19600
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2021 6:22 PM

Floyd Johnson:
Of course, the other issue is how long will LOGOS support Windows 10?  Will they target the same 2025 date as Microsoft?

Faithlife thread => ANNOUNCEMENT: End of support for Windows 7, Windows 8.1 & MacOS 10.11–10.13 preceded Microsoft end of support for Windows 7 by 7 months.

Uninformed user speculation is Faithlife supporting Logos & Verbum on Windows 10 while Microsoft supports Windows 10. When Microsoft firmly establishes end of support date for Windows 10, anticipating Faithlife announcement about Windows 10 end of support: maybe 10 months earlier than the end date this time Wink

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 9205
LogosEmployee

Floyd Johnson:

Of course, the other issue is how long will LOGOS support Windows 10?  Will they target the same 2025 date as Microsoft?

It will depend on customer adoption of Windows 11 (and probably also on many other consumer technology developments in the next four years), but we generally don't support running Logos on operating systems that have reached the manufacturer's end of life. (E.g., see our discontinuation of support for Windows 7: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/182626.aspx.)

Posts 9205
LogosEmployee

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
When Microsoft firmly establishes end of support date for Windows 10

It's already established: October 14, 2025.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-10-home-and-pro 

Posts 6112
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2021 9:09 AM

Kiyah:

Glad they're supporting it until 2025.

It seems like they just want people to mindlessly rush right out and buy new hardware. Nope. lol

By the time that Windows 10 is no longer supported by Microsoft, the oldest processors qualified to run Windows 11 will be seven years old. Most people who use Windows machines replace them more often than that.

“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

Posts 1753
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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2021 9:44 AM

SineNomine:

Kiyah:

Glad they're supporting it until 2025.

It seems like they just want people to mindlessly rush right out and buy new hardware. Nope. lol

By the time that Windows 10 is no longer supported by Microsoft, the oldest processors qualified to run Windows 11 will be seven years old. Most people who use Windows machines replace them more often than that.

I think the same way as SineNomine but I do things in my own way. My desktop is now over 8 years old and if nothing drastic happens I'll buy a new one in 2025. I bought my laptop in 2017 and will use it until it dies (or I). I tend to buy top level hardware and I need some special peripherals and software and special setup, thus I does not make sense to scrap it every third year. So it looks like I'll be destined to be one step behind in the operating system version or in the Logos version. Fortunately most of the incompatibility introduced with the new versions is artificial (business based), not functional.

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11

Posts 1689
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2021 3:55 PM

SineNomine:

Kiyah:

Glad they're supporting it until 2025.

It seems like they just want people to mindlessly rush right out and buy new hardware. Nope. lol

By the time that Windows 10 is no longer supported by Microsoft, the oldest processors qualified to run Windows 11 will be seven years old. Most people who use Windows machines replace them more often than that.

My ThinkPad will be 5 years old in August and I'm hoping not to need to replace it any time soon. It works great and doesn't feel old at all. 

Posts 274
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2021 8:48 PM

My Dell Optip[lez has TPM 1.2 my other two laptop and my HP all-in-One doesn't have it. My HP has secure boot. I think it is wrong to require all this. Making tons of people buy new computer for what so Microsoft partners get rich? 

Posts 344
Pater Noster | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2021 5:24 AM

I think many people here (and in the industry) have not been reading enough to truly understand what Microsoft is up to here.

With Windows 11, Microsoft is committing to SECURE (make impenetrable, lock down) the computing experience from mobile device through desktop through servers to the cloud. That's a HUGE COMMITMENT and a significant statement that the industry will be watching closely.

This doesn't just mean viruses and malware, it means ransomware, attacks during boot time, and other sophisticated attacks from nation-states that you can find out about. This is frankly vitally important not only for end users but corporations, government, and more. IMHO it is time that this gets locked down for good, and no longer suffers from some user in the basement of a corporation taking down the power grid because they clicked on a link on an old PC. Society needs to get past that for its own preservation. Windows 8 computers powering our electricity grid won't survive the next 10 years. 

To do this today, TPM 2.0 is required (among other things, like secure boot not legacy/BIOS booting). This kind of commitment to security and performance is not possible without hardware advancement. And the days of just boosting the CPU and maybe the GPU have been over for a long time - people have learned from Qualcomm, Apple, and others that complex Systems on a Chip are the architecture of the day. 

Organizations and corporations that care about their security, cloud data, performance etc., will buy computers with the right hardware if they believe Microsoft is delivering on this promise. 

As an aside, I have read that Windows 11 will ultimately work on computers running TPM 1.2, so more is to be learned about this in the upcoming months. But make no mistake, this is a sea change in priorities for Microsoft, no longer prioritizing installed base.

The second big issue requiring a higher level of hardware is performance. Computing needs are significantly growing, with enhanced communications, mobile use, VR, simulations, massive data calculation, cloud computing, (and security), and more coming. A strategy of massive OS adoption  won't work when such a large percentage of Windows computers can't support security, performance, and graphic computing horsepower needed by many. People may say "I don't need it". But what is Microsoft to do? If they advertise "Massive upgrade in secure, high powered performance computing with Windows 11", they better deliver it - or the user complaints will be loud.

As another note - Microsoft has not upgraded the minimum requirements to run Windows since 2009. Do we really think the advanced hardware-software designs, needs and requirements will work on a population of computers with such low capabilities these days? 

So Microsoft is bifurcating its strategy. How is Microsoft handling all this?

  1. If you insist in using an older computer that isn't  capable of doing what the state of the art will offer in the next 5 years, stay on Windows 10. It will be supported. There will be upgrades. If Microsoft had continued with their prior strategy of not changing the version number and just continuing to do 3 upgrades a year, people would have never known the difference. Until 2025, your life (and Windows  support) will be no different than it was in the past. And if the past is any indication, the final support date will be pushed later than 2025 as we get closer - just a hunch.
  2. If you want/need the security, performance etc. that is possible with state of the art hardware enhancements that exist today and in the future, get a PC that has those hardware advancements and upgrade to Windows 11.

Both Windows 10 and Windows 11 customers will be fully supported citizens in the Microsoft world. You just can't get some of what Windows 11 will offer on old hardware. That doesn't mean your computing experience will be worse with Windows 10.

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2021 7:19 AM

While I was in the software industry, and we felt that our software is slow, difficult to use, and buggy, we joked that it is because of the security features (joking among us, but not with customers).

In the cell phone industry there was quite extensive intentional incompatibility: each phone had a different charger with a specific connector.

The car industry in the 1950s and 1960s or so advertised new models with wonderfully new technology every year ...

Based on my own experience and on the known history, I don't feel terribly enthusiastic ...

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11

Posts 1481
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2021 7:34 AM

Randall Lind:

My Dell Optip[lez has TPM 1.2 my other two laptop and my HP all-in-One doesn't have it. My HP has secure boot. I think it is wrong to require all this. Making tons of people buy new computer for what so Microsoft partners get rich? 

I don’t know anything about your personal situation, so I won’t say “all you have to do is XXX.”

But Windows 10 will be supported until 2025. So, it’s possible you would need to replace your current machine by then. (Of course, if you are a person who builds his own computers, I don’t know what you would do about upgrading/replacing in the first place).

WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum 9 Ultimate

Posts 274
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2021 10:36 AM

I don't believe in buying a new computer for windows. My Dell optiplex is nicee and fast and runs Logos nice and fast. Logos just needs to make a Linux version. I would go back to Linuxmint in a heartbeat.

Posts 1481
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2021 11:06 AM

Randall Lind:

I don't believe in buying a new computer for windows. My Dell optiplex is nicee and fast and runs Logos nice and fast. Logos just needs to make a Linux version. I would go back to Linuxmint in a heartbeat.

Not what I meant. I meant, given the lifespan of an average computer, 10 should be covered until your machine needs to be replaced unless you build your own machine. In which case, I don’t know.

WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum 9 Ultimate

Posts 274
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2021 1:46 PM

I used to build my own but sincee I don't game I normally just get a new computer at a pawnshop or off Amazon.

Posts 3883
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2021 2:49 PM

Randall Lind:

I used to build my own but sincee I don't game I normally just get a new computer at a pawnshop or off Amazon.

Can we buy a used computer that can use Windows 11?  What specs do I shop for in order to guarantee that a machine (new or used) can run Windows 11?  

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 213
Edil | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2021 5:39 PM

I was going to post a new message for this same topic. I was able to test Logos on a testing laptop (Thinpak X1 Yoga), running Windows 11 and I can tell you that it runs fine, no problems at all. Now, I don't have one of those super expensive Logos libraries, I just have the Logos 8 full feature set bilingual (all the datasets and databases in english and spanish), and the books that I've being carrying on since I began with libronix and logos 4 after that. I upgraded to the free Logos 9 engine though. So I don't know if that's gonna make a difference for those of you that have one of the newest Logos 9 super libraries. So you can take my word, Logos does work on Windows 11. By the way the computer were I installed Windows 11 was deemed incompatible by the PC Health tool provided by Microsoft, so I had to recur to the trick of replacing the appraiserres.dll file in the Windows 11 ISO, with the same file from a Windows 10 ISO.

Then I checked my personal laptop computer (Thinkpad E570), that have an Intel i7 8700u (kabelake) CPU, with 16 Gb of Ram, a 256 SSD drive and a 1 Tb HDD and to my surprise the Windows PC health check tool told me that it is not compatible with Windows 11. I read that one requirement for Windows 11 is to have TPM 2.0 and secure boot active in the UEFI/BIOS. Checked and I have both, so I made sure to have them activated, ran the tool again and now it says that my CPU is not compatible with Windows 11... What!?!? Minimum requirement for CPU is to have 2 cores and 64bit architecture but for some reason Microsoft doesn't like my i7 Kabe lake. Not only that but I read that if you are using a laptop Microsoft is forcing you to have a web cam capable to adjust the brightness, so no webcam no Windows 11. I can tell you, my laptop is in pristine condition working flawlessly, for me to buy a new laptop is not a good act of stewardship. It upsets me when a company twist your arm to buy new equipment and software with an immoral forced obsolescence practice. Sadly Faithlife is not excluded, I'm was very happy with the smartphone that I bought back in 2014 running Android Kit Kat (5.0), but Logos forced the minimum of Android version 7 in order to use the app. Problem was that my phone no longer had official updates so I had to root it and re-image it with an open source Android image (LinageOS), in order to use the Logos app and until this day I'm still using the same smartphone no problem whatsoever.

All the software that I use in my laptop is open source, there is only one commercial software that force me to use Windows... you got it... Logos. So I cannot install Linux because of that. I've been told that Logos with WINE is problematic.

Oh and by the way for those of you like me that dislike that new awful look of Windows 11 start menu and task bar buttons in the middle (that looks like an ugly Macintosh), don't sweat... from settings you can tell Windows 11 to move the start menu button and task buttons to the left (where they should be), and by adding a dword32 key in the registry  HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced, you can make the start menu to look like the Windows 10 start menu. I did it and it works beautiful. Not that I liked Windows 10 GUI anyways, Windows 7 in classic mode was the pinnacle of the GUI environments.

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Posts 274
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 27 2021 7:00 PM

You will need to find a used machine in a pawnshop running Windows 11 or figure out if it has support for TPM 2.0 in the CPU. Microsoft first says TPM 1.2 on their site then now it only 2.0. My Optiplex does 1.2. I have a Dell laptop and an HP all-in-one that doesn't support TPM. Now if you build your computers you may have a TPM 2.0 plug on your motherboard and then all you need is a plug-in adaptor.  I know nothing about TPM just that for some reason Microsoft wants to have your computer locked down. 

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