We/us and they/them mutually exchanged for same group?

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Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Oct 28 2021 4:06 AM

I remember somewhere in the Bible the first person (we/us) and third person (they/them) can mutually be exchanged but still about the same group of people. Could anyone give me examples in the Bible? Any sources (books etc)? Thanks.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 30 2021 9:04 PM

bump for visibility in order to get a response 5

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 56
Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 31 2021 3:32 AM

Thanks for your reply.

First, let me ask if my posting has been in the wrong place (for I have received nearly no reply). If it is, please tell me where should be the right place for posting.

Now let me tell that I myself have found 3 places in the Bible.

In Ps 89:15-18 and 92:12-14, third person plural and first person plural are mutually exchanged but still about the same group of people. The latter Scripture also has third person singular and third person plural mutually exchanged and about the same group.

Rev 5:9-10 (per Pickering’s translation—The Sovereign Creator Has Spoken: Objective Authority for Living: The New Testament with Commentary. Second Edition.)

9 And they sing a new song saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll

and to open its seals;

because You were slaughtered,

and have redeemed us to God by your blood

out of every tribe and language

and people and ethnic nation;

10 and You have made them kings and priests to our God,

and they will reign on the earth.” (Rev 5:8-10 P2) [Underlined mine.]

Here there are 2 pronouns “us” and “them” inside the new song sung by the 4 living beings (angels) and the 24 elders (humans). Since angels do not need to be redeemed, when both groups sing “us” the angels are having empathy with| humans (the 24 elders). And when both groups sing “them”, this term refers back to “us”. As such, the angels again are having the same empathy.

The number 24 fits well new Jerusalem, in Rev 21:12-14|, that has 12 tribes + 12 apostles (12+12=24). Thus, we take the 24 elders the same as the Bride or new Jerusalem.

Note on "us" in  v.9— Pickering, Sovereign, 547, note f says—

Every Greek manuscript except one, of inferior quality, reads “us”. Many modern versions follow that lone manuscript and omit the pronoun, but that leaves the transitive verb “redeem” without a direct object, so they usually supply “men” or some such thing. But the true reading is obviously “us”, …. [Emphasis original.]

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 31 2021 5:51 AM

Theo Lau:

First, let me ask if my posting has been in the wrong place (for I have received nearly no reply). If it is, please tell me where should be the right place for posting.

You maybe in the right place. BUT while this question is important to you and you seem to have put much thought into it.

BUT we, on the other hand, have NEVER given it a thought: until you asked the question.  So we do not have any immediate answers to this.

If you do not get better answers add a 'BUMP' in a couple of weeks to remind us that we have not yet examined this topic.

Then next year "BUMP" again to see if we have learned anything.  [Define "BUMP" as posting in a thread to bring it back to our attention."

Posts 56
Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 1 2021 2:23 AM

Could you show me how to add a BUMP, step by step? You may laugh at my ignorance. But this is my real situation. Thanks.

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Levi Durfey | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 1 2021 4:59 AM

Theo Lau:

Could you show me how to add a BUMP, step by step? You may laugh at my ignorance. But this is my real situation. Thanks.

You add a new post to the thread and type, "Bump." 

Anytime a new post is added to a thread, it moves it to the top of the list of posts. The post could say anything, but "Bump" is a common word that forum posters use.

Posts 2962
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 1 2021 5:04 AM

Theo Lau:

Could you show me how to add a BUMP, step by step? You may laugh at my ignorance. But this is my real situation. Thanks.

Just reply to a post in the thread and just add the word "BUMP" done! 

[And as for ignoring "ignorance" we had one of my favorite speakers at church this week.  I missed half of her talk as I had to leave the sanctuary to explain some biblical principals to a visitor. I apologized to her for walking out so many times. (She forgave me. My wife and I were involved in backing her in planting the church she now goes to.)

Posts 56
Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 1 2021 3:56 PM

BUMP

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 2 2021 9:22 AM

Theo Lau:
In Ps 89:15-18 and 92:12-14, third person plural and first person plural are mutually exchanged but still about the same group of people. The latter Scripture also has third person singular and third person plural mutually exchanged and about the same group.

It seems to me that this reflects the ancient author/copyist and/or the specific translation (we cannot state that we have the original Hebrew/Greek).

Ps 89:15-18 KJV has "Blessed is the people", ESV has "Blessed are the people". The change to first singular seems deliberate, for emphasis.

Ps 92:12-14 in the ESV is translated as plural. In v.12, KJV has "he shall grow" whilst ESV states "and grow" i.e. KJV partially acknowledges the singular.

Rev 5:8-10 varies between the TR (KJV) "us" in v.9,10 and the 'eclectic' Greek where translations have to insert a word in v.9 - usually "people"  - which is consistent with the plural in v.10! So this is about the choice of Greek words from different manuscripts.

My thoughts only!

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 56
Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 3 2021 4:29 PM

Sorry, I forgot to list out NASB95 with the ORIGINAL HEBREW (shown in its interlinear) checked. So now I am giving it as follows—

Psalm 89:15–18 (NASB95)

15 How blessed are the people who know the joyful sound! O Lord, they [3rd pl] walk in the light of Your countenance. 16 In Your name they [3rd pl] rejoice all the day, And by Your righteousness they [3rd pl] are exalted. 17 For You are the glory of their [3rd pl] strength, And by Your favor our [2nd pl] horn is exalted. 18 For our [2nd pl] shield belongs to the Lord, And our [2nd pl] king to the Holy One of Israel.

Psalm 92:12–14 (NASB95)  

12 The righteous man [3rd si] will flourish like the palm tree, He [3rd si] will grow like a cedar in Lebanon. 13 Planted in the house of the Lord, They [3rd pl] will flourish in the courts of our [2nd pl] God. 14 They [3rd pl] will still yield fruit in old age; They [3rd pl] shall be full of sap and very green,

[Last time I made some mistakes and now I have corrected as follows]

As per the ORIGINAL HEBREW of both of these Scriptures, BOTH have THIRD person plural and SECOND person plural mutually exchanged but still about the same group of people. The latter Scripture EVEN has SINGULAR and PLURAL mutually exchanged and about the same group.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 3 2021 7:55 PM

It's quite common for pronouns to get switched up in some parts of Scripture, particularly in the prophets and psalms. The examples you gave demonstrate the concept, but as Dave pointed out, it is hard to look just at an English translation to confirm an actual example. Better to consult the OLs. I don't have any examples committed to memory, but I am confident that it happens multiple dozens of times, if not hundreds. Other grammatic shifts also occur, such as switches from singular to plural. Although these shifts sometimes make it into English, it is very common for translators to "pick a winner" and "fix" the grammatic shift for readability. The NASB95 usually prefers accuracy over readability, so I recommend it when looking for these kinds of issues. If the translation team does choose a readability option for the text, then the NASB usually has a marginal note that gives the literal reading, which is fine. The NET Bible has excellent textual notes, so it frequently will address grammatic shifts such as these. I don't recommend the NET translation, since that translation team is very free in its willingness to "paper over" any issues for the sake of readability.

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David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 4 2021 7:08 AM

Theo Lau:

Psalm 92:12–14 (NASB95)  

12 The righteous man [3rd si] will flourish like the palm tree, He [3rd si] will grow like a cedar in Lebanon. 13 Planted in the house of the Lord, They [3rd pl] will flourish in the courts of our [2nd pl] God. 14 They [3rd pl] will still yield fruit in old age; They [3rd pl] shall be full of sap and very green,

I would expect the writer of Jewish poetry to describe THEIR relationship to OUR God, rather than THEIR relationship to THEIR God.

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