Judah as a New Testament Person

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 18 2022 8:39 PM

Justin Gatlin:

Here is a broader idea: search all of your commentaries about Matthew for the word "Judah."

Search

I just bought some legacy libraries. I don't even know what I have yet. This will be a fun search! Thanks!

Posts 719
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 8:38 AM

I was reading through some of my new commentaries last night, along with those I already had. So, almost all commentaries treat the first chapter of Matthew the same. I now fully understand why we are warned not to START with the commentaries. Of course we should consult them, but this project has illustrated why I will want to heed that warning.

I did learn that the focus on Abraham and David has to do with the promises made to them by God. I don't think God promised Judah anything, but I need to find that out for sure. But I still want to focus on the scion of Judah, not David or Abraham. I want to explore the tribe of Judah, and not the wider group from Abraham and not the narrower group from David.

So much focus is on judging the women. That is not my intended focus, even if I am not sure what will be my focus. I think I might be offended at the way the women are discussed, but I don't want to get distracted. I think there is something more here to explore. I think I am glad I started this project this uninformed.

Why was the tribe of Judah chosen for both David and Jesus? David did not just spring forth from Abraham, without the formation of the tribes.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 9:09 AM

Kathleen Marie:

Why was the tribe of Judah chosen for both David and Jesus? 

Try using Factbook to look up the entry on Judah and see what your linked dictionaries say about how Judah came to prominence.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 9:54 AM

Kathleen Marie:

 I don' think God promised Judah anything, but I need to find that out for sure.

Oh my. Poor Judah got canceled?

Gen 49:10 (again)

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 11:53 AM

Graham Criddle:

Try using Factbook to look up the entry on Judah and see what your linked dictionaries say about how Judah came to prominence.

I started with just Judah in Matthew, then moved on to Judah in factbook, got overwhelmed and moved to passage guides of Matthew 1. It is time to go back to factbook of Judah with what I have learned in Matthew. Thanks for pointing me back there! I need to remember to keep going back and forth.

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 12:15 PM

DMB:

Kathleen Marie:

 I don' think God promised Judah anything, but I need to find that out for sure.

Oh my. Poor Judah got canceled?

Gen 49:10 (again)

Logos lists this scripture as spoken by Jacob and addressed to the sons of Judah.  This was one the scriptures that started me on this project and that caught my attention the most. The commentaries on Matthew are hyper-focused on the promises of God. When they don't list this as significant, I am assuming it is because they see it as Jacob talking to Judah and his descendants? I didn't forget this scripture, but I am trying to figure out what to do with it.

One of the commentaries said the Messiah is about fulfilled promises of God, and then narrows into Abraham and David, based upon that definition. I think that might be what is keeping the other commentaries so narrow. Not wanting to start a debate, but if there are groups that do NOT agree with that definition, what are they, so I can be sure to search logos for resource books that will have a wider or different definition. I'm thinking this will be in the Messianic libraries and the denominations with the larger canons of scripture. I will start randomly searching the dictionaries that I do already have for "Messiah".

I am searching around in the church fathers, and I am finding bits about adoption and Mary and Joseph being from the same tribe. I know I need to follow up on that. The ancient practices of patrimony are interesting and different from our own. How this applies to salvation and the gentile church seems important. I really want to poke into this for a possible thesis.

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 12:34 PM

DMB:

Oh my. Poor Judah got canceled?

Gen 49:10 (again)

Ah... I think I found the keyword phrase I needed in this verse! "Judah's Sceptor". Thanks!


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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 12:35 PM

Kathleen Marie:
When they don't list this as significant, I am assuming it is because they see it as Jacob talking to Judah and his descendants?

Perhaps they are ones who do not believe that prophecy is possible, because no one—even under inspiration from God—can predict the future. Judah is important in this line because he is the ancestor of David, and Messianic prophecies definitely tie David to Christ. Judah also gave his name to the tribe from which David—and ultimately Christ came.

Now, I have probably violated someone's understanding of the forum guidelines Stick out tongue

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 2:29 PM

Jack Caviness:

Kathleen Marie:
When they don't list this as significant, I am assuming it is because they see it as Jacob talking to Judah and his descendants?

Perhaps they are ones who do not believe that prophecy is possible, because no one—even under inspiration from God—can predict the future. Judah is important in this line because he is the ancestor of David, and Messianic prophecies definitely tie David to Christ. Judah also gave his name to the tribe from which David—and ultimately Christ came.

Now, I have probably violated someone's understanding of the forum guidelines Stick out tongue

This helps so much! Okay, yeah, I have stumbled upon this key difference in commentaries, but it is one of so many new ideas. I am not yet applying these fire-hosed ideas that are just about knocking me to the ground. This really helps. Not just with this project, but as an example of how to process what I read in commentaries and how to better search for the ones I need to complete a project.

Posts 719
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 2:53 PM

DMB:

Gen 49:10 (again)

I like to read and post on this forum from my Raspberry Pi running the default RPI Linux, because the text is so naturally large without any modifications. But it means that links don't always work, and I need to use another device for Logos.

I just brought this one scripture up in a passage guide on my Windows laptop. Yesterday I purchased some Legacy 5 libraries and was feeling guilty and conflicted about those purchases. Until I ran this search. I have NEVER seen anything like this in my software. I think it is partly due to this verse being well cited, but I have run a couple more searches, and it is like I have new software. Okay, now, finally I can get something done!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 3:02 PM

Kathleen Marie:
When they don't list this as significant, I am assuming it is because they see it as Jacob talking to Judah and his descendants?

Don't overthink Logos or underestimate it's inadvertant theological bias. They don't list it as "significant" only because they already had their maximum count for "significant" - nothing more, nothing less. And significance is topic dependent.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 5:10 PM

MJ. Smith:

Kathleen Marie:
When they don't list this as significant, I am assuming it is because they see it as Jacob talking to Judah and his descendants?

Don't overthink Logos or underestimate it's inadvertant theological bias. They don't list it as "significant" only because they already had their maximum count for "significant" - nothing more, nothing less. And significance is topic dependent.

Thank you! I will be happy to read a bit from all biases. I am not afraid of bias, as long as I have multiple biases to compare. I think I need to look again at some of the less popular Legacy 5 starter libraries. Since the older resources seem to be better tagged than the newer ones, and I can finally search, I want to make sure my searches are as diverse as possible.

I wish Messianic libraries started earlier. And the non-standard Verbum libraries.

I am learning as much about logos software as I am about Matthew and Judah. That is always how it is when I take on projects too big for me.

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Roy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 9:52 PM

Kathleen Marie:
I don't know what I don't know. Can anyone point me in a direction? Maybe I should just drop this, but I am not quite ready to do that. I never noticed that it is Leah, not Rachel, that is the line of Jesus. I am following along in a reading plan with a church and the Pastor's comments about Leah and Judah have set off a fireworks of thoughts in my head that were not there in previous readings of Matthew and Genesis.

Hi Kathleen Marie,

I'll attempt to do this without violating the "No Theology" rule.

I was going to try and type this myself but to make it logos library related..;) I found this snip-it from the Logos/Verbum resource The Catholic Bible Dictionary. The snip-it contains most everything I would have shared anyway...

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i. judah, son of jacob

Judah was the fourth son of Jacob; he was born of Leah (Gen 29:35, 35:23, 46:12; Exod 1:2). He shares the spotlight with Joseph in Gen 37–50. Influential among his brothers, he was able to prevent the murder of Joseph by suggesting to his brothers that they sell him to Arab merchants headed for Egypt (Gen 37:26–27). Later when his brothers met up with him in Egypt, Joseph demanded that Benjamin—who had remained behind in Canaan with Jacob—should come to him. Judah pleaded with Jacob to allow Benjamin to return to Egypt with him; Judah even offered his own life as “surety” for Benjamin’s safe return (Gen 43:8–9). Soon after, he took responsibility as substitute for Benjamin’s apparent theft of the cup (Gen 44:18–34).

In spite of his heroism elsewhere, the description of Judah in Gen 38 is less than flattering. Judah married Bathshua, a Canaanite, and had three sons by her: Er, Onan, and Shelah (Gen 38:2, 12; 1 Chr 2:3). Er wed Tamar, but died before fathering any children by her. Onan then was obligated to fulfill the levirate custom and accept his sister-in-law as his wife, but he refused to consummate the union and died for his sin. Fearing for the fate of his remaining son, Judah withheld Tamar’s just rights under custom, refusing to give her Shelah as her husband. Tamar, however, outwitted Judah. She dressed as a harlot and drew him into having intercourse with her. She conceived and gave birth to twins, Perez and Zerah; both were finally acknowledged by Judah to be his. Despite this immoral scenario, the Messianic line of Judah was continued and prevented from dying out (Matt 1:2–3).

Hahn, Scott, ed. Catholic Bible Dictionary. New York; London; Toronto; Sydney; Auckland: Doubleday, 2009.

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You can most likely run with those points in all kinds of directions....

Posts 719
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 9:59 PM

Okay, I think I got this. Thank you everyone!

I think Logos might have updated yesterday. I know the legacy 5 libraries made a difference, so I spent a bit more and my search fields blew up even more. These last couple choices were a bit "crazy'' to see what would happen, and it worked. LOL. I have different biases side by side linking to more and more and more stuff. I put in a couple interlibrary loan requests and got a couple more things through the library Hoopla online access.

But I could not have done this without you all. Thanks! You got me over the hump. I have bookmarked the thread and will reread it if I get stuck. Some things will need to be repeated and reread a few times, as I understand more and more. But I think I got this.

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 10:01 PM

Roy:

Hi Kathleen Marie,

I'll attempt to do this without violating the "No Theology" rule.

...

Hahn, Scott, ed. Catholic Bible Dictionary. New York; London; Toronto; Sydney; Auckland: Doubleday, 2009.

You can most likely run with those points in all kinds of directions....

Thanks!! We cross posted and I did not see this. Scott Hahn writes good stuff! I will look for more from him. I like this.

Posts 719
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 10:23 PM

And the red helped!

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Roy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2022 11:11 PM

Kathleen Marie:

And the red helped!

Your Welcome...

This resource also has a couple interesting points...

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE), 1915 Edition 

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Judah was the fourth son born to Jacob by Leah in Paddan-aram (Gen. 29:35, etc.). Of this patriarch’s life only scanty details remain to us. He turned his brothers from their purpose to slay Joseph, persuading them to sell him to the Midianites at Dothan (37:26–28). A dark stain is left upon his memory by the story told in ch 38. Reuben forfeited the rights of primogeniture by an act of infamy. Simeon and Levi, who came next in order, were passed over because of their cruel and treacherous conduct at Shechem. Judah, therefore, inherited the honors and responsibilities of the firstborn (ch. 34; 35:22; 49:5ff.). On the occasion of their first visit to Egypt, Reuben acted as spokesman for his brothers (42:22, 37). Then the leadership passed to Judah (43:3; 44:14–34). The sons of Joseph evidently looked askance upon Judah’s promotion, and their own claims to hegemony were backed by considerable resources (49:22ff.). The rivalry between the two tribes, thus early visible, culminated in the disruption of the kingdom. To Judah, the “lion’s whelp,” a prolonged dominion was assured (49:9ff.). Many scholars think that the distinguished part played by Judah, the son of Jacob, reflects the important role of the tribe of Judah, which seemed to result from the prominence of certain families at the time of the patriarchs.

Hunter, S. F. “Judah.” Edited by Geoffrey W Bromiley. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised. Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1979–1988.

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Those items/points might speak to why the 10 northern tribes were so ready to get out from under Judah and let Joseph rule.

Not about Judah specifically but about his influence on future events.

Now I need to hit the sheets...

Posts 740
Kevin A Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2022 6:21 AM

As is "Jude"

Posts 719
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2022 3:16 PM

Roy:

This resource also has a couple interesting points...

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE), 1915 Edition

Thanks! I was able to cut and paste the text, with colors intact, into my notes in Logos. I am hoping to find some academic articles on some of these ideas that you have highlighted. "Primogeniture" is quite a word! I wonder what will come up for some searches that include that word. What fun!

Although concise, these entries are loaded with so many ideas terrific that I need to read them over and over as I progress with my research. They point me in the right direction. Thanks!!!

Posts 719
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2022 3:17 PM

Kevin A Lewis:

As is "Jude"

Hmm. That is interesting!

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