Search septets in Revelation and Daniel

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Posts 57
Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Feb 23 2022 12:22 AM

I made a similar post some time ago, but still not seen appearing in this forum. So I do it again. There are septets in Revelation, e.g. 7 churches, 7 seals, 7 bowls, etc. Can Logos 9 search all septets in Revelation and Daniel (which has 2 languages--Aramaic and Hebrew)? If yes, how to use this function in Logos 9? Thanks.

Posts 666
Roy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 23 2022 2:10 PM

It's there just a few posts down...

and someone did answer you....

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/205770.aspx 

"Find all 7-Item groups in Revelation and Daniel"

Posts 122
Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 23 2022 7:11 PM

Theo, just to add to my previous post already referenced try searching for seven* (including the * symbol) instead of just "seven". This will pull results such as seventh and seventy as well.

Posts 57
Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 24 2022 4:18 PM

Thanks to Morgan and Roy, for your help. But, sorry, I would like to have more about that. For example, there are 7 “blessed” in Revelation. You cannot search “seven” there and see the result. Another example,

 There is a chiasm of eternal items in Rev 14:6-20, also containing 7 units, as— 

Another example, there are yet also 7 units of signs introduced by the same Greek root orao (italics in the following). This can be taken as a septet with a summary and chiasm—

 12:1     “A great sign appeared in heaven, a woman…” [summary]

 12:3     “Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold a great red dragon…”

      13:1           “…Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea…”

            13:11   “Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth…”

            14:1     “And vow, I saw a Lamb standing on Mount Zion…”

      14:6           “And I saw another angel, flying in midheaven…”

14:14   “Then I looked and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like ….”

Each Greek root orao starts a significant topic.

All the above examples show that you cannot search “seven” and get what I want. I also have other examples like those. Sorry. But thanks for your help.

Anybody can help? Thanks in advance.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 25 2022 2:09 AM

My guess is that most of this can only be derived from actually studying the text.

Different people would probably have different views on the significance of these patterns you are describing and so any tagging Faithlife were to provide would be subject to (probably quite considerable) debate

One thing that might help is to use the Concordance Tool and search for words that just occur seven times in Revelation (see the red outline in the screenshot to show where this is specified. I have set the Tool to look at roots, but you can do the same things for lemmas or English words as well

 

Posts 57
Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 25 2022 7:32 PM

Thanks Graham very much for helping me a lot. I believe that if only through searching the septets we could understand the book of Revelation more easily, for it is obvious that John deliberately set lots of septets in the book, and he must have wanted to give us some message through such a planning. Now I still have questions—

(1) What is the difference between Heading and Count which are at the top right corner?

(2) When in searching the lemma, if I click “plural” there appeared terms (e.g. ἀποκτείνω, γίνομαι) that did not otherwise appear. Why?

(3) When in searching the lemma, if I click “Words of Christ 14” it becomes “Words of Christ 4” (and I saw 4 entries). What does “14” mean?  

I use NASB95.

Thanks in advance.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 25 2022 11:36 PM

Theo Lau:
(1) What is the difference between Heading and Count which are at the top right corner?

These control the order in which the results are given.

Theo Lau:
(2) When in searching the lemma, if I click “plural” there appeared terms (e.g. ἀποκτείνω, γίνομαι) that did not otherwise appear. Why?

Did not appear where? What selection parameters did you have set? Bible book? Count?

Theo Lau:
(3) When in searching the lemma, if I click “Words of Christ 14” it becomes “Words of Christ 4” (and I saw 4 entries). What does “14” mean?  

As "Words of Christ" is not a lemma, I am confused. Screen shots might help.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 57
Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 26 2022 3:40 AM

Sorry for my confusing words. Explanation of my former Question (2)--

In the screenshot, A[1] and B[1] each has the lemma chosen.

A[2] has the plural NOT chosen.

B[2] has the plural chosen, here you can see the 2 Greek terms in B[3]. These 2 Greek terms do not appear in A[3].

In A[2], no matter I chose both singular and plural or I chose neither of them those 2 Greek terms will still be missing in A[3].

In the following there is another screenshot for explanation of my former Question (3).

C[2] has "Words of Christ 14" NOT chosen.

D[2] has "Words of Christ 4" chosen.

I just don't know what these "14" and "4" represent.

   

NOTE ALSO that in B, "Words of Christ" (NOT chosen ) is followed by "3".

Thanks.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 26 2022 4:11 AM

MJ. Smith:
As "Words of Christ" is not a lemma, I am confused. Screen shots might help.

Words of Christ is one of the filter options on the lefthand menu

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 26 2022 4:21 AM

The key thing here is that the filters are cumulative.

So, take for example, the word οὖς that appears in D in your screenshot (I know it isn't in the screenshot but you would see it in those results if you scrolled down). That means that this word appears 7 times in Revelation spoken by Jesus. But you wouldn't find it if you scrolled down C in your screenshot.

That is because it appears 8 times altogether in the book, with the eighth occasion (13:9) not being spoken by Jesus

 

This explains why terms may appear when adding additional filters - with these terms not being present in the unfiltered results.

Theo Lau:

C[2] has "Words of Christ 14" NOT chosen.

D[2] has "Words of Christ 4" chosen.

I just don't know what these "14" and "4" represent.

These simply show how many matching terms are present in the current set of filtered results - so in the first case there are 14 lemmas that appear in Revelation where Jesus is speaking, in the second case there are 4 lemmas that appear in Revelation only within words of Jesus

Does this help clarify what you are seeing?.

Posts 57
Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 26 2022 2:46 PM

Thanks again to Graham for your explanation. I am much clearer now. Yet I still have questions--

(a) I said "In A[2], no matter I chose both singular and plural OR I chose neither of them, those 2 Greek terms will still be missing in A[3]." My logic is: those 2 Greek terms appeared when I chose plural, they should also have appeared when I chose both singular and plural. 

(b) When I chose neither singular nor plural, what does this mean?

(c) This question is related to how I use forum tools (I was silly not to learn it first). When I want to quote, say, Graham's words, what steps should I do?

Thanks in advance. 

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 26 2022 3:20 PM

Theo Lau:
(a) I said "In A[2], no matter I chose both singular and plural OR I chose neither of them, those 2 Greek terms will still be missing in A[3]." My logic is: those 2 Greek terms appeared when I chose plural, they should also have appeared when I chose both singular and plural. 

It's the same principle as discussed previously relating to Words of Christ

They won't be in A3 because they don't, without qualification, appear just 7 times in Revelation.

Taking the first one for example, it appears 15 times in Revelation but only 7 times as plural - which is why it appears in B3

It's the same case for the second one as well

Theo Lau:
(c) This question is related to how I use forum tools (I was silly not to learn it first). When I want to quote, say, Graham's words, what steps should I do?

Highlight the text you want to quote and then click the Quote button at the bottom of that entry.

Posts 57
Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 26 2022 7:01 PM

Thanks to Graham.

I am trying to describe the case with my own words (if I say anything wrong, please correct me).

When we click both the singular and the plural, though plural alone renders more terms than the singular, the ultimate threshold set by the computer (Logos 9) is still 7 items as a group (septet, no more no less), and so the ultimate result does not have the 2 Greek terms in B[3].

On the other hand, when we click neither the singular nor the plural, we just give no command to the computer, and so the computer only generates results as being NOT dictated (whether the result is the same as both singular and plural simultaneously clicked or other ways, we just need not care.)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 26 2022 7:26 PM

I may be incorrect but I believe the count is applied only once - to the root without regard to how they are distributed across number.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 26 2022 11:19 PM

Theo Lau:

When we click both the singular and the plural, though plural alone renders more terms than the singular, the ultimate threshold set by the computer (Logos 9) is still 7 items as a group (septet, no more no less), and so the ultimate result does not have the 2 Greek terms in B[3].

On the other hand, when we click neither the singular nor the plural, we just give no command to the computer, and so the computer only generates results as being NOT dictated (whether the result is the same as both singular and plural simultaneously clicked or other ways, we just need not care.)

I'm afraid I can't follow what you are saying.

Could you work through another example again, with screenshots, to help me understand better?

Posts 57
Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2022 2:50 AM

I think I need to discard my simple logic and hold on what Graham earlier taught.

Could Graham teach me how to understand the “14” in “Words of Christ 14”? Could you tell me how to trace these "14" items? (You don't need to list out all the 14 items.) Thanks.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2022 8:52 AM

Theo Lau:
Could Graham teach me how to understand the “14” in “Words of Christ 14”? Could you tell me how to trace these "14" items? (You don't need to list out all the 14 items.)

I thought it might be easier to reduce the scope of what we are looking at, so I've just focused on Revelation 2-4 (clearly this will give a different set of "sevens" but hopefully they will demonstrate the point.

The Field section on the left shows that there are six sets of seven and that five of them contain some words spoken by Jesus.

This matches the 42 count at the top of the panel on the right - for the six sets of seven.

Opening the 1st, 3rd and 4th enables us to see what is going on:

  • the 1st does not contain any words of Jesus - so this is the "sixth" set of seven
  • in the 3rd, all of the seven are spoken by Jesus
  • in the 4th, only one of the seven (outlined in red) is spoken by Jesus but because there is at least one that matches it adds to the count in the left panel

Does this help clarify?

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2022 2:00 PM

Graham Criddle:

Opening the 1st, 3rd and 4th enables us to see what is going on:

  • the 1st does not contain any words of Jesus - so this is the "sixth" set of seven
  • in the 3rd, all of the seven are spoken by Jesus
  • in the 4th, only one of the seven (outlined in red) is spoken by Jesus but because there is at least one that matches it adds to the count in the left panel

I must admit to being confused by these "counts" for Words of Christ.

  • the 1st set is the only one that does not contain any Words of Christ --> hence the count of 5 as opposed to 6
    • when you click the Words of Christ box you see that only 3 of those sets contain 7 words of Christ
    • (the 4th and 2nd sets don't contribute the required number of words, but they contribute to the count of 5 in the original display)

Then explain Bible Text which changes from 6 to 5 when clicked (it is connected with RI's and lemmas that are not translated)!!

Dave
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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2022 2:56 PM

Dave Hooton:
the 1st set is the only one that does not contain any Words of Christ --> hence the count of 5 as opposed to 6

Agreed

Dave Hooton:

  • when you click the Words of Christ box you see that only 3 sets contain 7 words of Christ
  • (the 4th and 2nd sets don't contribute the required number of words, but they contribute to the count of 5 in the original display)

Yes, I mentioned the fourth set in my reply above

The second set doesn't feature because, for some reason, the result from 3:9 and the last occurrence from 3:18 is excluded. The same thing is seen if doing a Bible Search - and I admit I don't understand why they don't appear.

Dave Hooton:
Then explain Bible Text which changes from 6 to 5 when clicked (it is connected with RI's and lemmas that are not translated)!!

I don't see that, can you provide a screenshot?

Posts 57
Kee Lau | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2022 3:24 PM

Graham Criddle:
Does this help clarify?

I am clarified and thanks to Graham.

So if I want to exhaust all the septets of Revelation, I need to choose ONLY ONE filter in one time, and choose ONLY ONE possibility (e.g. lemma vs root, for this, of course, I can only choose one). Otherwise I cannot exhaust. And thus the whole process is quite slow. Do you have any way to quickly do it?

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