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xnman | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, May 3 2022 12:03 PM

Sorry... but I can't seem to get my mind wrapped around the search in Logos.... I find it confusing, hard to find things I need as I spend lots of time trying to figure out "how to search" instead of actually getting helpful answers.... I don't know why I find the search in Logos to be so hard to understand.... I fumble with it every time I use it... 

So... I don't mean to be a pest.... but I know there are "experts" in the Search function of Logos... and I appreciate everyone of you... because I need help....

So... this time... here's what I am trying to search for....

Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees.... taught by someone whose name started with "Gam????"

Thanks...

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 12:09 PM

xnman:

taught by someone whose name started with "Gam????"

I believe his name was Gamaliel.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 12:19 PM

Beloved Amodeo:

I believe his name was Gamaliel.

Yes, thank you, you are correct.  But I was trying to find the Bible verse where that was stated....

I tried.... "Paul AND Gamaliel".... "Gamaliel AND Paul"... with no results....  I tried Factbook....  no results...

So... I ask... 

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 3538
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 12:22 PM

xnman:

Sorry... but I can't seem to get my mind wrapped around the search in Logos.... I find it confusing, hard to find things I need as I spend lots of time trying to figure out "how to search" instead of actually getting helpful answers.... I don't know why I find the search in Logos to be so hard to understand.... I fumble with it every time I use it... 

So... I don't mean to be a pest.... but I know there are "experts" in the Search function of Logos... and I appreciate everyone of you... because I need help....

So... this time... here's what I am trying to search for....

Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees.... taught by someone whose name started with "Gam????"

Thanks...

xnman, I feel your pain. Using Logos can be something of an art. Some questions are better answered by other functions than Search. I was able to verify my answer by using Factbook for Paul. So this question was plied by leaving off search altogether.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 3538
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 12:26 PM

xnman:

Beloved Amodeo:

I believe his name was Gamaliel.

Yes, thank you, you are correct.  But I was trying to find the Bible verse where that was stated....

I tried.... "Paul AND Gamaliel".... "Gamaliel AND Paul"... with no results....  I tried Factbook....  no results...

So... I ask... 

Try "at the feet of" NEAR Gamaliel

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 3538
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 12:31 PM

Also, <Person Paul> NEAR Gamaliel works I think. These are Bible Searches BTW.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 1:32 PM

xnman:
I tried.... "Paul AND Gamaliel".... "Gamaliel AND Paul"

These two are equivalent - in the order doesn't matter when using the AND operator.

The reason it didn't return any results is that there are no verses where those two words both appear. When Gamaliel is referenced, Paul is speaking about him and doesn't mention his own name.

The search suggested by Beloved Amedeo does work as the word is tagged with <Person Paul>

"Then Paul said, “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, and I was brought up and educated here in Jerusalem under Gamaliel. As his student, I was carefully trained in our Jewish laws and customs. I became very zealous to honor God in everything I did, just like all of you today."

I know this doesn't specifically help work out what an appropriate search would be but thought the explanation might be helpful

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 1:37 PM

And Search Templates are useful for this - you can access them by clicking the icon with three horizontal lines at the top left of the search window.

Choose the option of one person speaking about something and specify Paul as the speaker and Gamaliel as the subject. That will generate an appropriate search string and would find what you were looking for

Posts 1212
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 1:50 PM

Thanks again....   One of these days....  I hope I will learn about this Search thing in Logos.

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 676
Bill Shewmaker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 2:16 PM

Try this:

<Person Paul> NEAR <Person Gamaliel>

Posts 2953
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 2:36 PM

xnman, I think you put question marks in your search.  If you searched using * rather than a question mark, I think it would produce better results.  I searched for "Gam***"  and it gave me a list of results, and one of them was the verse I believe you were looking for.  * is the wildcard in searching.

"Paul AND Gamaliel" doesn't work because Paul is speaking in first person in Acts 22:3 and his name does not occur in the verse.

Acts 22:3  “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day."

There is no question that searching in Logos is not intuitive, nor simple, unless one has spent quite a bit of time using the program.  I have always felt it could be better done for most users, with a more technical search for those who require it.  Searching is the main drawback for someone new to Logos Bible Software.  But it is certainly worthwhile to master it.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 2:45 PM

I believe the Bible browser is intended to meet many of the "beginner's" search requirements ... and often Factbook makes a search unnecessary. However, using wildcards (*,?) is always going to result in a slow search; it is not generally recommended. Something like <Person Paul> <Sense = to be educated (reared)> is a much more practical approach when you forget the name.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3538
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 2:55 PM

MJ. Smith:

I believe the Bible browser is intended to meet many of the "beginner's" search requirements ... and often Factbook makes a search unnecessary. However, using wildcards (*,?) is always going to result in a slow search; it is not generally recommended. Something like <Person Paul> <Sense = to be educated (reared)> is a much more practical approach when you forget the name.

MJ, I was just about to post a similar opinion on Bible Browser. I had screenshots ready. It should be your go to resource for searches before you involve the Bible Search. One can learn so much from the use of Bible Browser.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 1212
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 3:34 PM

Mike Childs, MJ. Smith and Amodeo....

Thanks for your replies...  And all of you bring up good points.... But...

If the search has so many different configurations... how in the world does Logos really expect common people (myself...) to remember all the configurations...  when I am in the middles of study something and need a quick answer to a simple question??

My theory is simple...  with Logos Search ... it ain't happening now!   

Sorry...  but Search and some of the guides in Logos cost me a lot of time... needless time!

I give Logos a  big "F" on their Search program!!

Maybe.. if I live long enough.... I will "use Search long enough" that I will remember some of the configurations to actually make it work for me... but I'm a thinking not... right now! ... I don't think it's fair for Logos to expect users to have a PHD degree in hieroglyphic's just to be able to matriculate the use of Search!

Edit: I'm actually thinking that the Search in Logos is nothing more than "bloatware" which doesn't actually help us users!  I mean... just look at all the questions and complaints about the Search in Logos on the forums.... Anybody listening???

Just my opinion...  

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 4:10 PM

xnman:
If the search has so many different configurations.

There are so many different configurations that in some circumstances will generate the same results because there are so many user questions that require the same results. It is that simple. You only need to know the configurations related to how you personally ask questions, assuming those questions are well-formed.

Faithlife has gone to great effort to minimize the number of time a new/beginning user needs to use a search. In your particular case with Paul, opening Factbook to Paul would have been the fastest answer; Bible Browser would have been a bit more work; your approach unfortunately, a search with wildcards, was the most complex and slowest running way to the answer.

xnman:
some of the guides in Logos cost me a lot of time
 

What are some examples of the guides to which you are referring?

xnman:
Edit: I'm actually thinking that the Search in Logos is nothing more than "bloatware" which doesn't actually help us users! 

Bloatware is an insulting term. One need only watch the Verbum Advanced Search videos to recognize that it is not bloatware but rather functions useful to many but not necessarily all. That said, there are several small steps that I think would help the search:

  • show all the parameters with the search argument - those on the panel menu and those implicit in the search type included
  • have a single source for ALL search elements and operators even if it simply links to existing documentation
  • document "quirks" such as where operators work but lists don't
  • document what search elements are dependent on specific resources or resource types - even if it is simply a flag in the library - so that we know what we are searching (and why expected hits are missing)
  • handle syntax issues with the search argument more explicitly rather than just returning no results
  • add an option to the guide section's heading bar to expose the search(es) used for the section - training tool and template not something to run.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1212
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 7:30 PM

Well.... truth is sometimes insulting to some... 

MJ.... what you are doing is arguing to add to the Search to actually make it more confusing to use. That is the true definition of bloatware....

If Logos wants to greatly improve their software...  then re-build Search and the Guides so that us users can actually use them without spending all our time trying to figure out how to use them. It seems that the Search didn't work in the first place... so Logos started building all the Guides and such .... which only has led to more confusing about how to find things.

And as to Factbook... add that to the list.

If they were to do just re-build Search for Logos 10 to where it is actually usable... it would be worth it in my books.

I've said my piece.... I'm done with it.... from now on, I'll just do like a lot of people I see.... ask how to find what I'm looking for on the forums.... 

Sorry..

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2022 9:06 PM

xnman:
truth is sometimes insulting to some... 

Only if put in divisive language; otherwise it can be constructive criticism. However, you still didn't provide examples of the Guides you are complaining about which leaves me not knowing what you are trying to say.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1212
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2022 6:51 AM

MJ. Smith:

xnman:
truth is sometimes insulting to some... 

Only if put in divisive language; otherwise it can be constructive criticism. However, you still didn't provide examples of the Guides you are complaining about which leaves me not knowing what you are trying to say.

I didn't think I used any divisive language...????

I find most of the guides confusing... not just one! I think they all can be simplified to be of better help to me as a user.

And to add to that.... is it not the case... that now... you have to remember which guide to use to do which search? Isn't that more proof that Search is actually not working and all the guides just add another layer of confusion to the issue?

Edit:  Please don't take all this as me vs you.... I don't mean it that way.

KISS is really an act of genius! 

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 25985
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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2022 7:19 AM

xnman:
And to add to that.... is it not the case... that now... you have to remember which guide to use to do which search? Isn't that more proof that Search is actually not working and all the guides just add another layer of confusion to the issue?

I don't follow that.

Search is for finding particular occurrences of words or phrases within a resource.

Guides are used to focus on particular areas of study - examining details relating to a word, pulling together information about a passage, exploring a particular topic, etc.

I use them differently depending on what I am focusing on.

If, for example, I want to find every time Jesus is speaking to Peter I will use a Bible Search,

If I want to examine everything I have on John 21:15-21 (where Jesus is speaking to Peter) I would use a Passage Guide

If I want to explore the meaning of the word translated love in John 21:15 (and other occurrences in that passage) I would use a Bible Word Study Guide.

So I find it useful to spend a little time thinking about what I am trying to achieve and then using the most appropriate tool for that task.

Does that make sense at all?

Posts 6063
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2022 7:54 AM

xnman:
If the search has so many different configurations... how in the world does Logos really expect common people (myself...) to remember all the configurations...  when I am in the middles of study something and need a quick answer to a simple question??

I don't think it does.

Fortunately, answering simple questions does not require knowing, never mind remembering, all of the different search configurations.

It's not entirely clear to me from your posts whether you knew the name "Gamaliel" before you made the first search. However, a perfectly basic Bible search for "Gamaliel" or "Gam*" would have given you your answer almost instantly, especially if you skipped down to New Testament references. Looking in Factbook for "Gamaliel" would also have gotten your desired result immediately. Going to the Factbook entry for "Paul" would likely return Bible dictionaries or even a Key Article that mentions Gamaliel as his teacher, likely with a biblical reference. Or, if your library is anything like mine, a basic search for either "Gamaliel AND Paul" or "Gam* AND Paul" would get your answer instantly. A Basic search for "Paul's teacher", even without the quotation marks, also floods me with correct results. Likewise "Gam* Pharisee" floods me with correct results without quotation marks and still supplies me a couple with them. If you had instead typed "Gamaliel" into a Topic Guide, you would have probably seen and correctly identified "Gamaliel (Teacher of the Law)" as a helpful topic to check, and if you had a resource with an entry about him, you would have your answer.

None of the above methods of getting the right answer are advanced. None require any search syntax more complicated than ", *, or AND, and some of them require no syntax at all.

The only problem in your original search is that you relied on a search that would only uncover your answer if both terms occurred in the same Bible verse, something that in principle could fail to occur for numerous reasons. This search mistake is a basic one discussed on the forums before by other people who have made it and learned from it.

Yes, there exists tonnes of complex search syntax. Fortunately, most searches (and users) require none of it.

"God commands you to pray, but He forbids you to worry." - The Curé d'Ars.

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