What must I do to be saved? Research

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 22 2022 1:38 AM | Locked

Rodney Phillips:

As simple as John 3:16

Favoring the simple may indicate a tendency to approve what is simple-minded. Jn. 3:36 NASB (only 20 verses later) shows that there is a Scriptural equivalency between "believe" and "obey".

From DBLG:
577 ἀπείθεια (apeitheia), ας (as), ἡ (hē): n.fem.; ≡ Str 543; TDNT 6.11—1. LN 36.23 disobedience (Ro 11:30, 32; Eph 5:6; Col 3:6; Heb 4:6, 11+); 2. LN 31.107 rejection of belief, refuse to believe (Eph 2:2+), for another interp, see prior
578 ἀπειθέω (apeitheō): vb.; ≡ Str 544; TDNT 6.10—1. LN 36.23 disobey, be disobedient (Ro 10:21; 11:30, 31; Heb 3:18; 11:31; 1Pe 2:8; 3:20; 4:17+); 2. LN 31.107 reject belief, refuse to believe (Jn 3:36; Ac 14:2; 19:9; Ro 2:8; 15:31; 1Pe 3:1+), note: there may be overlap of verses and entries
579 ἀπειθής (apeithēs), ές (es): adj.; ≡ Str 545; TDNT 6.10—LN 36.24 disobedient (Lk 1:17; Ac 26:19; Ro 1:30; 2Ti 3:2; Tit 1:16; 3:3+)

Fwiw, in the NASB, every underlined verse entry that is listed above under "reject belief, refuse to believe" (save Acts 14:2 which has "disobeyed" in the margin) is actually translated by a form of "disobey".

To answer the thread question: Do what YHWH says. It's that "simple"...and that involved.

One way of expressing that is "keep Tohraah". Another is keep "every word that proceeds from the mouth of 'Elohhiym."

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Rodney Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 22 2022 10:46 AM | Locked

The Gospel at its core is VERY simple..   Works will not get you into Heaven..  The Bible is very clear on this..   And there has only been one person that ever kept the Tora and the Laws without breaking them.  And that was Jesus..  And as the OT teaches, if you have broken even just one of the laws, you have broken all of them.. 

Posts 190
John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 4:12 AM | Locked

The answer by Paul in Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (NKJV). Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. He was our substitute. I Corinthians 15:3-4 He paid the price for our sin. He offers eternal life the moment you believe. John 3:16. Salvation is a free gift received by faith alone in Christ alone.  Ephesians 2:8-9. We must look to Christ for salvation. My assurance of salvation comes not by looking at myself or my works but by looking to Christ and his finished work. John 19:30. I can have assurance the moment I believe the Gospel. In heaven they won't be singing my praises but Worthy is the Lamb that was slain. Revelation 5:12.  

Posts 197
Bill Coley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 10:10 AM | Locked

Rodney Phillips:

The Gospel at its core is VERY simple..   Works will not get you into Heaven..  The Bible is very clear on this..   And there has only been one person that ever kept the Tora and the Laws without breaking them.  And that was Jesus..  And as the OT teaches, if you have broken even just one of the laws, you have broken all of them.. 

And yet in Mark 10.17-31, when asked by a man what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus says follow the commandments (Mark 10.19); he says nothing about faith or belief or the impossibility of commandment-keeping. When his questioner claims to have obeyed the commandments from his youth (Mark 10.20), Jesus still says nothing about faith or belief or the impossibility of commandment-keeping, but instead tells him the one thing he hasn't done is to sell all of his possessions, give the proceeds to the poor, and follow him (Mark 10.21). In neither his interaction with the man nor the conversation with his disciples that follows does Jesus reference faith, belief, or the impossibility of commandment-keeping. I think it's a subject well worth exploring via our Logos resources (and beyond) why Jesus responded to the man's question the way he did, and how his responses in the Mark 10 scene merge with and/or detour from other New Testament declarations about the path to eternal life.

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 10:20 AM | Locked

Bill Coley:

And yet in Mark 10.17-31, when asked by a man what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus says follow the commandments (Mark 10.19); he says nothing about faith or belief or the impossibility of commandment-keeping. When his questioner claims to have obeyed the commandments from his youth (Mark 10.20), Jesus still says nothing about faith or belief or the impossibility of commandment-keeping, but instead tells him the one thing he hasn't done is to sell all of his possessions, give the proceeds to the poor, and follow him (Mark 10.21). In neither his interaction with the man nor the conversation with his disciples that follows does Jesus reference faith, belief, or the impossibility of commandment-keeping. I think it's a subject well worth exploring via our Logos resources (and beyond) why Jesus responded to the man's question the way he did, and how his responses in the Mark 10 scene merge with and/or detour from other New Testament declarations about the path to eternal life.

But did Jesus reference belief and keeping commandments and repentance in other places?

Which brings up a good question about this question of "What must I do to be saved?"... is the answer only recorded in the teaching of Jesus ... only in one place or is there more than one place I have to go to to find the true answer?

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 1422
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 10:42 AM | Locked

Bill Coley:

And yet in Mark 10.17-31, when asked by a man what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus says follow the commandments (Mark 10.19); he says nothing about faith or belief or the impossibility of commandment-keeping. When his questioner claims to have obeyed the commandments from his youth (Mark 10.20), Jesus still says nothing about faith or belief or the impossibility of commandment-keeping, but instead tells him the one thing he hasn't done is to sell all of his possessions, give the proceeds to the poor, and follow him (Mark 10.21)..

Within DAL's research question, Jesus also doesn't spell out saved 'from what'. The 'what' also varied considerably, with Origen later suggesting no worries,  Whatever the 'what' was, the crowds didn't seem to be mystified.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 10:45 AM | Locked

xnman:
 ... only in one place or is there more than one place I have to go to to find the true answer?

You're absolutely correct ... Judgment Day uses a histogram of 'times mentioned'. Some will not make it, if they don't count correctly.

Posts 225
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 11:02 AM | Locked

Studying one doctrine at a time in isolation (in this case: what is needed to be saved?) is sure to be doomed to failure. Let me use an analogy to explain. If you take a loan to buy a house, there are many features in the contract to consider: interest rate, length of the loan (15 years or 30 years), down payment needed (3% of 5% or 20% of the value of the property),….Each bank chooses the various design features optimally. They didn’t choose each feature separately.

 

As a borrower, when I wanted to buy a house, I got quotes from several banks. I didn’t compare just the interest rate alone or the length of the loan or the down payment needed alone to decide which bank to choose. While bank A may be cheaper in terms of interest rate, bank B might be better in terms of down payment, but bank C might be best once I take all feature of the contract into account.

 

Just like the bank, God didn’t choose each of the doctrines we believe in, in isolation. Collectively, the entire set of doctrines were chosen by God so as to achieve His goal. What is this goal? Reveal His glory. I’ve read probably 40 systematic theology books on God’s wisdom. They all pretty much say the same: God’s wisdom is to choose this goal (reveal His glory) and the means to achieve His goal. And I agree wholeheartedly with that assessment. Additionally, in my mind, the means by which God achieves His goal are the doctrines He has chosen to articulate through the Bible.

 

Thus, if we try to study one doctrine at a time without understanding how each doctrine contributes to God achieving His goal, we will be making wrong inferences. The last few years I have spent digging into the Scriptures has been trying to piece this puzzle together. I know I’ll never complete the puzzle and I know no human will ever complete the puzzle because we do not have God’s infinite wisdom. But the goal is to try and put as many puzzle pieces together as possible. Right now, I just see so many contradictions in people’s beliefs and my own beliefs, and that just bothers me.

Posts 197
Bill Coley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 11:12 AM | Locked

xnman:
But did Jesus reference belief and keeping commandments and repentance in other places?

Yes. But the Mark 10 scene is Jesus' first and perhaps only opportunity to tell that specific person about the requirements for eternal life or to identify for his disciples the lessons from the man's apparent rejection of Jesus' direction. What was it about the moment and/or the man with whom he shared it that led Jesus to conclude he didn't need to mention faith, belief, the impossibility of commandment-keeping, or repentance in his response to the man's question about the path to eternal life?

xnman:
Which brings up a good question about this question of "What must I do to be saved?"... is the answer only recorded in the teaching of Jesus ... only in one place or is there more than one place I have to go to to find the true answer?

As far as we know, the Mark 10 scene (and synoptic parallels, of course) is the only place that specific person heard Jesus' direct response to the question, "What must I do to be saved?" Did Jesus mean for his answer to the man to be fully sufficient? The way for him to be saved was to follow commandments (or, if the man wanted a comprehensive solution, also to sell possessions, give to the poor, and follow Jesus?) For that scene, it seems to me, the man believed he would hear in a single conversation with Jesus what you call the "true answer" to his question. Did Jesus give him one?

Posts 197
Bill Coley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 11:29 AM | Locked

DMB:
Within DAL's research question, Jesus also doesn't spell out saved 'from what'. The 'what' also varied considerably, with Origen later suggesting no worries,  Whatever the 'what' was, the crowds didn't seem to be mystified.

I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that "saved" in DAL's research question referred to the subject of the man's question to Jesus in Mark 10.

In the synoptic parallels of the Marcan account -- i.e. Matthew 19.16-30 and Luke 18.18-30 -- the question is what the man must do to "inherit eternal life." It seems reasonable to me to conclude that in Mark 10, the man wants to know what he must do to be "saved" into eternal life.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 12:08 PM | Locked

Bill Coley:

I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that "saved" in DAL's research question referred to the subject of the man's question to Jesus in Mark 10.

I

Not arguing; your points have been quite cogent and refreshing.  But the 'then' to the 'if' clause appears to have shifted across time and author.  Of course, the crowds didn't have the 27 book concatination, later to assist xnman in properly calculating the truth.

Posts 5576
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 2:11 PM | Locked

Rodney Phillips:
And as the OT teaches, if you have broken even just one of the laws, you have broken all of them..

Would love for you to quote that particular scripture. Actually, in numerous places Tanakh: says plainly that all that is necessary to resume a right relationship with YHWH if one sins is to repent, offer the appropriate sacrifice, and resume the proper path of obedience. Throughout the Bible (Paulus excepted, except for the exceptions to those exceptions), there is an explicit recognition that humans, even those favorably disposed toward 'Elohhiym, are susceptible to failure. Nevertheless, He readily offers compassion, forgiveness, and mercy in reply to our responsive efforts to deliberately limit and confine those periods of infraction and "target-missing", as long as we actively return to a pattern and habit of aiming for and hitting the targets He has set for us. This responsive behavior is what YHWH wants, expects, and is soothed by. He knows we are but flesh because He's the one who made us that way. He doesn't hold us to an impossible standard, especially since He is the responsible party for our having fleshly minds. He simply asks that we deny the fabric of our being and do His will instead of our own. He knows that is difficult and He appreciates the struggle as long as our developed pattern of behavior is obedience and occasional necessary repentance.

Phrased differently, there isn't a single place in Tanakh: that says a single sin dooms a person to certain destruction and expulsion from His kingdom. That concept is not just foreign to the Scripture Yeishuua` knew, it is contrary to it. 

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Rodney Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 2:41 PM | Locked

Sorry..  NT.    James 2:10    

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 3:07 PM | Locked

Watch out ... something like a shift from a neutral statement of position to a calm discussion of theology has occurred. For an analogy, I would think thin ice, very thin ice on a warm day ... what must one do to be saved? Hope the big freeze happens very soon or get off the ice.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 3:11 PM | Locked

Rodney Phillips:

Sorry..  NT.    James 2:10    

I suggest 3 things to help keep things in context...

1. Who is talking...

2. To whom are they talking...

3. What is the context of the conversation...

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 3:50 PM | Locked

Rodney Phillips:

Sorry..  NT.    James 2:10    

Generally misunderstood, that verse isn't saying that if a person breaks a single commandment he or she is considered guilty of breaking every commandment. Jacob is saying you can't say I'm only 10% guilty (and 90% righteous) if you break a commandment; rather, you are 100% guilty of having "broken the Law". Also, although he uses the examples of muder and adultery in verse 11, contextually he is speaking about "showing partiality" (as in willfully ignoring and disregarding sins of a favored politician while harping on every sin, real or imagined, of a disfavor politician), a sin which is by its nature a sin of habitual practice, for a person must harbor and nurture partiality for it to exist. Absolutely ANY sin can become an unpardonable sin if it is never repented of, which is why partiality is the equivalent of the unpardonable sin, as demonstrated in calling good "evil" and evil "good, sweet "bitter" and bitter "sweet", light "dark" and dark "light". In Jam. 2:9 NASB, the verbs are present, meaning "if you are CURRENTLY showing partiality then you are CURRENTLY committing sin and are thus CURRENTLY standing convicted of law-breaking. Most people who show partiality will never repent of it because they are partial to being partial.

However, not only does Jacob leave room for repentance from being partial, but he advises precisely that in Jam. 2:12 NASB, indicating that those reading his words WILL BE JUDGED by that Law (as opposed to receiving nebulous grace regardless of behavior). In the next verse, Jam. 2:13 NASB, he indicates that the repentant mercy shown (by the now, as of verse 12, former transgressor) to those who are the victims of their previous partiality will result in mercy--that is, forgiveness of sin, rather than the previously earned judgment--being shown to the former practitioner of partiality.

In other words, there is no statement in Jacob that says a single sin results in inevitable judgment leading to destruction. In fact, he throughout supports the plain teaching of Tanakh:, which is that repentance (i.e. change of behavior, per verse 12) elicits YHWH's compassion and forgiveness.

In fact, there is an explicit teaching in Ezek. 18 (and elsewhere) that if a WICKED man ceases practicing his wickedness and begins practicing righteousness, that man will save his life. That whole conversation would be IMPOSSIBLE if there was any truth at all to stories suggesting that a single sin immediately and inevitably comdemns a person to destruction.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 5:09 PM | Locked

DP - most people in the thread avoided debate which was a very good thing. Don't ruin it for everyone.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 23 2022 6:48 PM | Locked

1Cor10:31:
The last few years I have spent digging into the Scriptures has been trying to piece this puzzle together. I know I’ll never complete the puzzle and I know no human will ever complete the puzzle because we do not have God’s infinite wisdom. But the goal is to try and put as many puzzle pieces together as possible. Right now, I just see so many contradictions in people’s beliefs and my own beliefs, and that just bothers me.

Understandable, but there is actually a reason things are as you perceive them...a reason prophesied in Scripture. "Puzzle" is the correct analogy and things are as bad as you have recognized, but at least there is an explanation for how and why it is so. Unfortunately, the explanation is unbelievable, per Hab. 1:5. Fortunately, some will eventually capitulate and believe it, though it will entail wholesale conceptual defacement and entire reconstruction for folks to get there. Unfortunately, most won't be able to get past their initial resistance and unwillingness to basically start from scratch. The only track at present is patience until YHWH begins challenging people with the revelations they cannot immediately and in most cases will never accept. The best course of action is to know and be prepared in advance for His challenge to come, because there won't be a single person on the planet who won't openly declare their unwillingness to accept and believe what He reveals about His prophesied redemptive work as the end draws near. That's what the prophecy says. For some reason, people always expect themselves to be an exception to the prophesied rule, and most don't think they will ever be placed in such a predicament. Regardless, all will be...Christian or not. Consider it the bad news about the eventual good news. Nevertheless, eventually, some--His little flock who hear and know His voice--will begin to accept the revelations as all the prophetic evidences in Scripture begin to coalesce. Once that occurs, vast swaths of things currently regarded as "mystery" won't be mysterious any more.

Fwiw, I only bring this up to assuage 1Cor10:31's perplexity and concerns...and because it absolutely impacts this topic.

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 24 2022 5:02 AM | Locked

Years ago... I studied "Why does God punish people?" and I came to this conclusion...

I don't think anyone would want to live in world where there is no laws, no restrictions, just all liberty and whatever is right in the persons mind, so be it.  That world would be total chaotic and nothing could ever be said to be "right". Mass confusion would be rampant.

I believe God is not like that...  He is not the author of confusion.... and as such there are "rules" in God's world.  Rules to get into God's world as well as rules to stay in God's world.

What this thread has become....is the discussion of the different "rules" that one must do to get into God's world.

I don't believe... there as single passage, or concurrent group of passages, in the Bible...that states all the rules to get to get into God's world.  I do believe the process is simple.... but one must search for it... as it seems God wanted one to do that. 

And we can discuss whether one "must do" such and such... but can it be proven that it is a "Must do"?  If we can prove that it is a "must do" in the case of salvation.... then the argument is over isn't it?  And it really doesn't matter what the "must do" is... does it? 

If God said (for example only) "Thou must stand on thy head to be saved"... well.. it may take me while... but I'm a gonna stand on my head... and I don't think I'm alone in this thinking.   Geeked

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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Bill Coley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 24 2022 10:18 AM | Locked

xnman:

What this thread has become....is the discussion of the different "rules" that one must do to get into God's world.

I don't believe... there as single passage, or concurrent group of passages, in the Bible...that states all the rules to get to get into God's world.  I do believe the process is simple.... but one must search for it... as it seems God wanted one to do that. 

And we can discuss whether one "must do" such and such... but can it be proven that it is a "Must do"?  If we can prove that it is a "must do" in the case of salvation.... then the argument is over isn't it?  And it really doesn't matter what the "must do" is... does it? 

For the issue I've raised in this thread, I think it DOES matter what the "must do" is because I've asked about the "must do" for the specific person with whom Jesus interacts in Mark 10.17-31 and its synoptic parallel accounts found in Matthew 19 and Luke 18. To avoid additional posted forum guideline reminders, advisories, caution flags, and warning lights, I rephrase my issue these ways: Can anyone recommend a resource which addresses whether Jesus intended his response to the person in those passages to report the fully sufficient path FOR THAT PERSON to "inherit eternal life"? Is there a resource that engages the question, what did Jesus want THAT PERSON to believe he had to do in order to "inherit eternal life"?

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