What must I do to be saved? Research

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 24 2022 12:32 PM | Locked

xnman:
I believe God is not like that...  He is not the author of confusion....

Gen. 11:6-7 ...'Elohhiym IS an Author of confusion. It's been awhile since I looked it up (and I'm on my tablet now so confirming isn't workable), but I'm pretty sure that the majority of times "confusion" (or a derivative) is used in the NASB, YHWH is the agent.

What 1 Cor. 14:33 NASB (note NASB doesn't have the words "author of"...and neither does the Greek) says in the Greek is basically "God is not of disorder but peace." Paul's statement is an observation about YHWH's "resting nature" so to speak, not a declaration about what He can or cannot do when He chooses to exercise His will. It ought to be painfully obvious that YHWH does utilize confusion to further His purposes. It does no good to insist that the chaos of our world is due to the activity of Satan, because hassaattaan is nothing more than a tool that YHWH is manipulating to further His own agenda. All of Satan's activity, even though it is performed intentionally to be contrary to YHWH's will, is nevertheless ultimately flipped by 'Elohhiym to fulfill His own objectives. Perhaps the most explicit example of YHWH authoring confusion found in the Greek scriptures is 2 Thes. 2:11-12 NASB. He authorizes and executively sends a strong delusion (in Greek, "a working of error"). Let's be clear...this crowd who is being deluded by YHWH consists of religiously-minded, Bible engaged individuals, quite like those found in Mt. 7:21, 22, 23. This "working of error" corresponds in part with "the work working" (per the Hebrew) of Hab. 1:5 that you won't believe even if you're told. Perhaps you do accept what was just said...great!! The Unbelievable Work will simply confront you elsewhere in order to extract and manifest your resistance. On the other hand, perhaps you don't believe a word that was said. Congratulations! You've just fulfilled prophecy! Lightning

Oh, btw, per the thread topic, Mt. 7:21 that we looked at above is another of dozens upon dozens of verses that declares (this time from Yeishuua`'s own mouth), that to enter the kingdom of heaven one must DO the Father's will. But, perhaps you don't believe that? [See last sentence of previous paragraph.]

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Posts 1458
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 24 2022 1:40 PM | Locked

Bill Coley:
Can anyone recommend a resource which addresses whether Jesus intended his response to the person in those passages to report the fully sufficient path FOR THAT PERSON to "inherit eternal life"? Is there a resource that engages the question, what did Jesus want THAT PERSON to believe he had to do in order to "inherit eternal life"?

I don't know of one (you're being very specific; most commentaries tippy-toe around him). But the earlier discussion of the thief on the cross gets considerable attention.  I thought AYB's Mark discussion was interesting (DP would no doubt disagree) .... my emphasis below:

"Such summaries of the Law were frequent in Jewish contexts (see the NOTE on “second” in 12:31), and an appeal to the Decalogue in response to a question about the attainment of eternal life would have been perfectly predictable; it was a basic principle of the OT and Judaism that the pathway to life was observance of the statutes of the Torah (see, e.g., Deut 30:15–16; Lev 18:5; Pss. Sol. 14:2; m.’Abot 2:7), and these in turn were epitomized by the Decalogue, which was considered to be a summary of the whole Law (see Philo, On the Decalogue 19–20; 154; Special Laws 1.1; Targ. Ps.-J. Exod 24:12). Matthew, then, is only bringing out Mark’s meaning when he has Jesus say, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matt 19:17)."

Posts 197
Bill Coley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 24 2022 4:09 PM | Locked

DMB:
I don't know of one (you're being very specific; most commentaries tippy-toe around him). But the earlier discussion of the thief on the cross gets considerable attention.  I thought AYB's Mark discussion was interesting (DP would no doubt disagree) .... my emphasis below:

Thanks for the quotation from AYB's discussion of Mark. I find its comments helpful but not on point for the questions I raised (which, as you correctly noted, are quite specific).

The message that Jesus and, post-resurrection, the apostles intended their audiences to hear from their teachings is a matter of endless exegetical curiosity to me. For example, what conclusions about Jesus did Peter want his Jerusalem audience to take from his presentation in Acts 2 in which he described Jesus as "a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signs that God performed among you through him," one who had been crucified by them but then raised up by God (Acts 2.22-24, NET, 2nd ed.)? And what did Peter want Cornelius and company to take from his calling Jesus "one appointed by God to be the judge of all" (Acts 10.42, NLT)?

Notice please that I'm NOT asking about the message(s) we modern day Jesus followers should take from Peter's words [EDIT: or the message(s) we should take from these texts when viewed in the context of the broader biblical canon]! Perhaps we should take the same message(s) as the one(s) Peter intended for those who first heard his words, perhaps not, but I'm not asking about these stories' modern consequences [EDIT: or their meaning in Scripture writ large]; I'm asking about the message(s) Peter, Jesus, Paul, and others wanted the people to whom they originally spoke to take from their words. Hence, my question, what did Jesus want the man to whom he spoke in Mark 10.17-31 to believe he had to do to be "saved," or to "inherit eternal life"?

I will welcome all other suggested resources that address the issue I raise.

Posts 5594
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 24 2022 5:42 PM | Locked

DMB:
the earlier discussion of the thief on the cross gets considerable attention.

Yeah...this.

Seems extremely tenuous to base a supposedly universal teaching regarding what we are required to do to please God on the extreme example of a person who is literally incapabe of doing anything at all. Concluding "he couldn't do anything...so I don't have to do anything" strikes me as the most brazen form of dodge possible. Also, I'm at present only addressing this tableau in isolation, without appealing to the multiple dozens of scriptures that spell out in detail precisely what we are expected to do. As soon as such details are allowed to inform the query, it is far more likely (I'd say certain) that Yeishuua`, given the extraordinary circumstance of the thief, engaged in making an extraordinary judgment based, so to speak, on "what if?" It seems quite like the old widow woman who threw her mites into the treasury. That was EVERYTHING she had, and it was reckoned as more than anyone else had given. If she had more, would she have given more? What do you think? Whatever you or I think, Yeishuua` knew what her heart would motivate her to do if things were different. For the thief, it was the same way. He couldn't do anything actively, but he did repent of his earlier derogatory attitude and acknowledged his need, requesting mercy. That was everything he could do, and Yeishuua` judged it sufficient.

Question: If all the others standing by heard Yeishuua` praise the widow's two mites...would it be adequate for them to then give only three? If your answer is "of course not...they were capable of giving so much more!", then you have your answer with regard to the thief's limited response and the response YHWH expects from those of us who are able...precisely because we are not unable...to DO HIS WILL.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 5594
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 27 2022 12:37 AM | Locked

I am packing my physical books for an eventual move and came across this title. Turns out it is available in Logos, and I own it in Logos and didn't realize it. For those who may be interested.

Apparently I got it as part of this collection, which I picked up when I bought this package.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 1212
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 27 2022 6:21 AM | Locked

David Paul:

DMB:
the earlier discussion of the thief on the cross gets considerable attention.

Yeah...this.

Seems extremely tenuous to base a supposedly universal teaching regarding what we are required to do to please God on the extreme example of a person who is literally incapabe of doing anything at all. Concluding "he couldn't do anything...so I don't have to do anything" strikes me as the most brazen form of dodge possible. Also, I'm at present only addressing this tableau in isolation, without appealing to the multiple dozens of scriptures that spell out in detail precisely what we are expected to do. As soon as such details are allowed to inform the query, it is far more likely (I'd say certain) that Yeishuua`, given the extraordinary circumstance of the thief, engaged in making an extraordinary judgment based, so to speak, on "what if?" It seems quite like the old widow woman who threw her mites into the treasury. That was EVERYTHING she had, and it was reckoned as more than anyone else had given. If she had more, would she have given more? What do you think? Whatever you or I think, Yeishuua` knew what her heart would motivate her to do if things were different. For the thief, it was the same way. He couldn't do anything actively, but he did repent of his earlier derogatory attitude and acknowledged his need, requesting mercy. That was everything he could do, and Yeishuua` judged it sufficient.

Question: If all the others standing by heard Yeishuua` praise the widow's two mites...would it be adequate for them to then give only three? If your answer is "of course not...they were capable of giving so much more!", then you have your answer with regard to the thief's limited response and the response YHWH expects from those of us who are able...precisely because we are not unable...to DO HIS WILL.

Is the way ... the thief on the cross was saved.... the way all people are saved today? Or did religious law change when Christ died, was resurrected and ascended to heaven? I think these are questions that are good to talk about in a discussion like this.

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 36103
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 27 2022 10:52 AM | Locked

xnman:
that are good to talk about in a discussion like this.

In a discussion somewhere other than the FL forums.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1212
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 27 2022 5:11 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:

xnman:
that are good to talk about in a discussion like this.

In a discussion somewhere other than the FL forums.

Definite maybe on this...

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 1584
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 27 2022 5:34 PM | Locked

DAL:
Can you help me answer this question based on your tradition? I’m not interested in who’s right, just on what you would tell me if I visited your church, whatever your tradition is.  Examples of traditions I’m interested in: 

DAL:
5.  Orthodox

I heard about this website from the Orthodox perspective on an Ancient Faith Radio podcast:

https://www.orthodoxintro.org/what-is-the-gospel/

https://www.orthodoxintro.org/how-do-i-become-a-christian-believing-belonging-and-becoming/

I'm not Orthodox so I can't vouch for it but thought I'd share the link.

Posts 36103
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 27 2022 5:55 PM | Locked

Were you around in the late 70's to early 90's when Jesus Freaks, Vineyard congregations, etc. were becoming Orthodox en masse? (see O Lord, Establish This Vineyard (journeytoorthodoxy.com) if you are too young to remember) Ancient Faith is run by the Antiochian Orthodox Church which was flexible enough in their requirements to make such whole congregation conversions practical. See Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9093
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 27 2022 5:58 PM | Locked

Thanks for the links Kiyah! 

I realized other groups besides Churches of Christ are also divided on the issue of baptism.  I even read quite a few eye opening comments on Logos Tips and Tricks on Facebook.  How the majority of the early church fathers taught baptism was essential to salvation and how it wasn’t until Zwingly started teaching otherwise that many followed along during the early stages of the reformation.  There’s another topic to research and keep me busy.

This is proving to be an interesting study. Thanks!

DAL

Posts 1584
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 27 2022 6:11 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:

Were you around in the 70's and 80's when Jesus Freaks, Vineyard congregations, etc. were becoming Orthodox en masse? Ancient Faith is run by the Antiochian Orthodox Church which was flexible enough in their requirements to make such whole congregation conversions practical. See Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

I wasn't "around" (not born or too young) but I did know that Ancient Faith Radio had its roots in Evangelical converts to Orthodox Christianity. For some reason I thought Ancient Faith Radio was connected to the OCA, maybe that's because I used to listen to the late Fr. Thomas Hopko a lot. I stand corrected.

Posts 1584
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 27 2022 6:19 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:
Ancient Faith is run by the Antiochian Orthodox Church which was flexible enough in their requirements to make such whole congregation conversions practical. See Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

fyi... the Orthodox Intro website I linked to is run by priests from the Antiochian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and OCA churches so at least they have some representation. 

Posts 1458
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 28 2022 8:07 AM | Locked

xnman:
Or did religious law change when Christ died, was resurrected and ascended to heaven?

I was examining the greek behind Mat 28:17 (unrelated to DAL's question). But then I noticed v20.  I'd suspect that puts a spanner in DAL's spinning analysis.

Posts 1212
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 28 2022 12:28 PM | Locked

DMB:

xnman:
Or did religious law change when Christ died, was resurrected and ascended to heaven?

I was examining the greek behind Mat 28:17 (unrelated to DAL's question). But then I noticed v20.  I'd suspect that puts a spanner in DAL's spinning analysis.

I'm a thinking.... I no understand.... could you explain further?

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 6063
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 28 2022 12:29 PM | Locked

DAL:
I even read quite a few eye opening comments on Logos Tips and Tricks on Facebook.  How the majority of the early church fathers taught baptism was essential to salvation and how it wasn’t until Zwingly started teaching otherwise that many followed along during the early stages of the reformation.  There’s another topic to research and keep me busy.

Here are some readings from resources sold by Faithlife that may be helpful for you in your research:

https://ref.ly/logosres/tchngschrchfthr?ref=Page.p+392&off=265

https://ref.ly/logosres/cathency?art=b.02258.9

https://ref.ly/logosres/hpslvtnbngbptsd?art=ch1.2.2

https://ref.ly/logosres/webelievechurch?ref=Page.p+112

https://ref.ly/logosres/thefaithofcatholics?ref=VolumePage.V+2%2c+p+110

https://ref.ly/logosres/fathknowbest?ref=Page.p+268&off=724

https://ref.ly/logosres/sacmundi?ref=VolumePage.V+1%2c+p+139&off=2419

https://ref.ly/logosres/ncyncntchrstnty?ref=VolumePage.V+3%2c+p+596&off=3209

 https://ref.ly/logosres/crossingthetiber?ref=Page.p+131

"God commands you to pray, but He forbids you to worry." - The Curé d'Ars.

Posts 6063
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 28 2022 12:48 PM | Locked

SineNomine:
Here are some readings from resources sold by Faithlife that may be helpful for you in your research:

Also, from Chrysostom:

https://ref.ly/logosres/stjhnbptnstrctn?ref=Chrysostom.Bap.+2.22

https://ref.ly/logosres/stjhnbptnstrctn?ref=Chrysostom.Bap.+3.5

https://ref.ly/logosres/stjhnbptnstrctn?ref=Chrysostom.Bap.+9.16

https://ref.ly/logosres/stjhnbptnstrctn?ref=Chrysostom.Bap.+9.21

"God commands you to pray, but He forbids you to worry." - The Curé d'Ars.

Posts 122
Greg Dement | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 28 2022 2:44 PM | Locked

Just skimmed the thread. Regarding the rationale that the thief on the cross is an example that negates the possibility of baptism being essential.  Whether baptism is essential or not a couple of thoughts:

-is there a difference in baptism as it existed before Christ died and rose from the dead and after the fact?

-in that thought process, if there is a difference, how would the following verse be applied to the thief on the cross being relevant to the discussion of it being essential or not?

“having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:12‬

Posts 225
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 28 2022 4:51 PM | Locked

No amount of Bible verses will ever resolve doctrinal differences. Why? Because each denomination is going to interpret the Bible differently.  Why? Because the Bible was never meant to be black and white. If it were meant to be black and white, God would dropped a set of PowerPoint slides. Hence, doctrinal differences across denominations will persist.

So where can we start to resolve differences? As G.K. Chesterton says, "All good argument consists in beginning with the indisputable thing and then disputing everything else in the light of it." What is "the indisputable thing"? In my mind, the only common fact that ALL Christians can agree upon are the attributes of God. Having settled on this “indisputable thing”––the attributes of God––then, you have to ask yourself: what attribute(s) of God would require God to ask us to perform a ritual (like baptism) in order to enter into a relationship with Him? In my mind, NOTHING. There is no attribute of God that would suggest He would require a ritual. [So why did God command baptism? I have a neat answer. But this is not the place.]

Then you can take it a step back and ask yourself (philosophically): Why does God even want to have a relationship with human beings? Clearly, it is not because something was lacking in Him. Thus, the reason He wants to have a relationship with us has to do something with us. What is this something? In my mind, it is because He wants to show us how to live because He takes responsibility for creating us. Patiently walk with me as I work through this logically. He chose to endow us with free will and He chose to endow us with what economists term "self-interested" nature (not the same as selfish nature) in order to exercise the free will He has given us. Isn’t it great that He didn’t leave us hanging with free will alone but He also endowed us with self-interested nature to help us make good decisions. Good decision-making requires forecasting the future consequences of our decision, but because we are creations (and not the Creator), we don't have perfect forecasting ability. Thus, human beings will always make some amount of bad decisions. But God cannot endow us with PERFECT forecasting ability (a.k.a. foreknowledge) because that is an attribute that only God possesses. Since we are created in His image, we have forecasting ability (like God), but it is IMPERFECT, by definition. So God is effectively saying, "Come, let me show you how to make good decisions that maximize your Welfare." And that is why He wants to have a relationship with us. He takes it a step further and says how we should live our lives. It is summed up in 1 Corinthians 10:31, which says “whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God.”  The word, “whatever” is an all-encompassing word that includes all activities we do in a 24-hour window. There are several ways to glorify God. Each is wired differently by God and placed in different circumstances. So the way I glorify God will be different from the way you glorify God. Maximize glorifying God is the same path as Maximizing our Welfare. Christianity isn’t that complicated, my friends.  

Posts 1212
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 28 2022 5:24 PM | Locked

Greg Dement:

Just skimmed the thread. Regarding the rationale that the thief on the cross is an example that negates the possibility of baptism being essential.  Whether baptism is essential or not a couple of thoughts:

-is there a difference in baptism as it existed before Christ died and rose from the dead and after the fact?

-in that thought process, if there is a difference, how would the following verse be applied to the thief on the cross being relevant to the discussion of it being essential or not?

“having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:12‬

Interesting....  I'll pose a thought.....

The difference is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Before that happened, God's people had to keep the Law of Moses.  Now many folk, regardless of their denomination, agree that we are saved through the blood of Christ.  So baptism, after the death of Christ is where one meets the blood of Christ..... so that.... if we are buried with Him.... Col 2:12. 

IMHO.....Geeked

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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