Logos Lacks Links, again and again and again
This is something I have long harped on; it is my major complaint against Logos. I can't find the original thread I started on it, but the problem keeps coming up again and again and again.
Logos Research Edition books are supposed to have complete hyperlinks to titles already in Logos' catalogue. Frequently this is not the case. I would describe the quality of links in any given resource as "hit or miss," and you never know what you are getting until you purchase it.
Today I just received the title, Trinitarian Dogmatics, published in 2022, a Logos Research Edition. Very new book! I pleased to see that it references one of my new favorite theologians, K. Sonderegger, and her Systematic Theology, which I have in Logos. I was disappointed but unsurprised that the citation was not linked:
(This is from page 8.)
Over the years, whenever I have voiced this complaint, I have been given many excuses as to why linking everything in Logos isn't possible. I do not see why any of those reasons should apply here. The new resource is new, produced in 2022, not in the wild days of loose standards in, say, the Libronix era. The cited work is in Logos catalogue and predates the new one (2020). Don't say it's because the page number is Roman; I was able to enter that in the resource's go box and go right to the page. This is a Research Edition, not a Readers' ebook.
Checking further, the book makes about 8 references to Sonderegger. NONE OF THEM ARE LINKED. Checking even further, almost nothing is linked--not even Charles Hodges's ST which has been in Logos forever! You got Barth's CD, but not his more recently released Romans.
This is sloppy. Very very sloppy.
Faithlife, what do you have to say for yourself?
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I get annoyed with this too. Did you check the bibliography to verify that the Logos edition is the same edition as cited in the bibliography?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I get annoyed with this too. Did you check the bibliography to verify that the Logos edition is the same edition as cited in the bibliography?
Yes, only one edition of the book, and I found the quotation easily enough by typing in the page number. Logos is supposed to save me that. There's really no excuse this time.
Roughly half the citations in this book seem to be unlinked, although I can't verify that all of them are available in Logos. They don't link Charles Hodge! That's big--that was one of the first works they linked up in their woefully-incomplete-at-release Theology Guide. I remember having that book in the first version of Logos I bought in the last century, whatever it was that came before Libronix...
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tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Sean said:
you never know what you are getting until you purchase it.
I copied the link to this thread to the product page for the book so (hopefully) others don't get the same disappointing surprise.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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My apologies. We definitely missed the Sonderegger references. We will get those updated.
As for Hodge, it appears to be a different edition.
We'll do an audit of other references as well.0 -
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Kyle G. Anderson said:
My apologies. We definitely missed the Sonderegger references. We will get those updated.
As for Hodge, it appears to be a different edition.
We'll do an audit of other references as well.Thanks for the response, though I'm likely to be done with my read-through before you push out an update.
Also check the refs. to Barth's Romans. It's the same edition as you published earlier this year.
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Yet another example from The Nonviolent Atonement, published in Logos this year. It cites Yoder's Politics of Jesus, published in Logos not-this-year, and no links were created:
If I had to describe Logos's linking, I would use the words "random" and "capricious." I've said it before, and it looks like I will continue to do so: You never know if you're going to get linking until you buy the book and look inside. Sometimes if you squint you can make sense of the policy ("Well, it's an identical reprint with the same page numbers & everything, but not the same original publisher, so we're not linking it") This isn't one of those cases.
Logos 10 will roll out soon, and we'll all pay money for new datasets for obscure searches, but this fundamental problem in quality control will continue to be addressed only half-heartedly.
EDIT: Here's the work: https://www.logos.com/product/195058/the-nonviolent-atonement-2nd-ed
Scanning through the pages, almost nothing in the footnotes is linked. Many of the titles aren't in FL's catalogue, but it doesn't look like even an attempt was made to link those that are.
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Sean said:
EDIT: Here's the work: https://www.logos.com/product/195058/the-nonviolent-atonement-2nd-ed
Scanning through the pages, almost nothing in the footnotes is linked. Many of the titles aren't in FL's catalogue, but it doesn't look like even an attempt was made to link those that are.
This is a Logos Reader Edition, which means FL won't put in the links to other books as we expect from Logos Research Editions.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
This is a Logos Reader Edition
Good point, no offense to Sean. But the 'reader edition' idea needs explanation on product pages more than a generic description. And I doubt FL would identify 'why'. The Catholic Encylopedia (old one) is a reader edition ... I'm guessing to its age?
A more recent example, Jodi Magness's 2nd ed of DSS archaeology is a 'reader edition'. The 1st edition product page doesn't say, but clicking thru my own copy, it looks pretty 'research edition' (active links). Would I buy her new one? Nope. Would I know not to? Nope (I don't closely examine; I should I guess). But then maybe FL had a reason ... who knows?
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DMB said:
But then maybe FL had a reason ... who knows?
I don't know the answer to "who knows" but the first thing I woud check is "was the 1st edition produced before the distinction between research/reader editions was made?"
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I don't know the answer to "who knows" but the first thing I woud check is "was the 1st edition produced before the distinction between research/reader editions was made?"
Certainly, but not quite the point. If an older edition is linked, and a new one isn't, I'd forego any update purchase. Absent knowing why.
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DMB said:
Good point, no offense to Sean. But the 'reader edition' idea needs explanation on product pages more than a generic description. And I doubt FL would identify 'why'. The Catholic Encylopedia (old one) is a reader edition ... I'm guessing to its age?
As best I can determine, Faithlife doesn't say more about what is missing from Logos Reader Editions because the tagging omitted varies from one Reader Edition to another.
If I recall correctly, the Catholic Encyclopedia has no <date> tags.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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NB.Mick said:
This is a Logos Reader Edition, which means FL won't put in the links to other books as we expect from Logos Research Editions.
Ah I knew there was one last thing I forgot to check before ranting! Although there are some links to resources with standard, non-page number references (e.g., Cur Deus Homo).
We really should make a master list of "reasons why you shouldn't expect to get links." (It won't be a short one.)
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SineNomine said:
As best I can determine, Faithlife doesn't say more about what is missing from Logos Reader Editions because the tagging omitted varies from one Reader Edition to another.
I would love for the Logos community to be able to crowd source the linking in Logos Reader Editions. It would be a win/win for everyone.
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Dave Palmer said:
Logos community to be able to crowd source the linking in Logos Reader Editions
Community tags are a step in this direction but I don't think they've been widely adopted.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sean said:
We really should make a master list of "reasons why you shouldn't expect to get links." (It won't be a short one.)
Prove it. [;)]
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:Sean said:
We really should make a master list of "reasons why you shouldn't expect to get links." (It won't be a short one.)
Prove it.
Oh I will some day, when I have more time. [:P]
For another example of capricious lack of links, see Rosie's recent thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/209140.aspx
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Sean said:
We really should make a master list of "reasons why you shouldn't expect to get links." (It won't be a short one.)
I have my list of one: I should not expect whole classes of links because I lack sufficient information on which to build an accurate prediction as I do not know when the resource was tagged under what guidelines and which resources referenced were matched by resources currently indexed with appropriate indices together with unavoidable human error.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dave Palmer said:
I would love for the Logos community to be able to crowd source the linking in Logos Reader Editions. It would be a win/win for everyone.
+1 (and not only the Reader Editions)
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:Dave Palmer said:
I would love for the Logos community to be able to crowd source the linking in Logos Reader Editions. It would be a win/win for everyone.
+1 (and not only the Reader Editions)
I would do it for Reader Editions as they are what they are advertised as.
For Research editions I would do it only for compensation (e.g., logos.com credit) as FaithLife has already been paid to do it.
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Sean said:
Today I just received the title, Trinitarian Dogmatics, published in 2022, a Logos Research Edition.
An update of this came through today, fixing at least the Sonderegger and Barth Romans links. Thanks for attending to this, but please try to do better with your quality control.
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NB.Mick said:Dave Palmer said:
I would love for the Logos community to be able to crowd source the linking in Logos Reader Editions. It would be a win/win for everyone.
+1 (and not only the Reader Editions)
Community tags gives you the opportunity ... have you tried it?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Wasn't there some sort of automated tagging scheme for a while? It could be tied back to that.MJ. Smith said:Sean said:We really should make a master list of "reasons why you shouldn't expect to get links." (It won't be a short one.)
I have my list of one: I should not expect whole classes of links because I lack sufficient information on which to build an accurate prediction as I do not know when the resource was tagged under what guidelines and which resources referenced were matched by resources currently indexed with appropriate indices together with unavoidable human error.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I also get annoyed by the missing links. I submitted (as typos) numerous links or corrections of links but am not sure if they ever get fixed.
Another thing that I recently noticed are links from resources to BibleGateWay. For instance, instead of getting my to John 13:23-26 in Logos, I have a link to https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+13%3A23-26&version=NIV. Here is the resource:
LLS:LFGDBDNCHRST
2021-06-17T17:43:50Z
LFGDBDNCHRST.logos40 -
MJ. Smith said:NB.Mick said:Dave Palmer said:
I would love for the Logos community to be able to crowd source the linking in Logos Reader Editions. It would be a win/win for everyone.
+1 (and not only the Reader Editions)
Community tags gives you the opportunity ... have you tried it?
In the past I have used Community Notes. I don't see Community Tags giving me the opportunity at all, because they restrict input to concepts, topics and whatever things FL has prepopulated in their tags database - no way to include self-created text (including ref.ly-links) I have seen. Did I miss something?
Have joy in the Lord!
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Back in 2014 to 2016 I mentioned this exact point. Nobody listened nor cared. So, I stopped.
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NB.Mick said:
This is a Logos Reader Edition, which means FL won't put in the links to other books as we expect from Logos Research Editions.
The decision to distinguish between the Reader Edition and Logos Research Edition is anyway rubbish. Only a half brained manager can came to such an output. The reason to have it in Logos IS the linking and search capabilities. Without this, it doesn't make sense to put any effort to create a module.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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Fabian said:
The reason to have it in Logos IS the linking and search capabilities.
I understand your frustration, but I do not agree... or at least I don't agree with what I <think> you are saying.
The two primary reasons I want my books in Logos are 1) to have all my books together and 2) to be able to search my library. If I remember a quote, I can type in a snippet and search ALL of my books. That does not require any tagging at all.
The ability to click on a citation in a footnote and go to the original source is nice... very nice... very helpful. I'm all for it. However, not having that ability won't prevent me from buying the book in Logos. Buying the book on Amazon won't fix your issue, and would eliminate the advantages in my two primary reasons for buying books in Logos.
Why have a "reader" instead of a "research" edition? Two good reasons I can think of: 1) time to production and 2) cost to the user. If a book wouldn't benefit as much from a "research edition treatment" and can be made available more quickly and cost effectively, I am all for it.
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Fabian said:NB.Mick said:
This is a Logos Reader Edition, which means FL won't put in the links to other books as we expect from Logos Research Editions.
The decision to distinguish between the Reader Edition and Logos Research Edition is anyway rubbish. Only a half brained manager can came to such an output. The reason to have it in Logos IS the linking and search capabilities. Without this, it doesn't make sense to put any effort to create a module.
My complaint back in time was about Lexham Products specifically. At the time I realized while linking is great it's not necessary because if you own the book just go open and go to the page number cited and boom. It's not rocket science.
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JT (alabama24) said:
Why have a "reader" instead of a "research" edition? Two good reasons I can think of: 1) time to production and 2) cost to the user. If a book wouldn't benefit as much from a "research edition treatment" and can be made available more quickly and cost effectively, I am all for it.
I don't doubt 'Reader Editions' .... Kindle can really be a headache and any notes are .... well, not in Logos.
But that said, just yesterday, I was in Patrologia (PseudoDionesius I think) ... it's a research edition (good), even morphed (good). And Logos landed me there on a right-click (good). But the landing site was in the index, and the index was plain-Jane. Didn't even bother to cross-ref to the volume I was in.
I just wish they'd either do a better QA job, or warn users that they sort of skipped this and that. An almost-research-edition, let's say.
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DMB said:
But that said, just yesterday, I was in Patrologia (PseudoDionesius I think) ... it's a research edition (good), even morphed (good). And Logos landed me there on a right-click (good). But the landing site was in the index, and the index was plain-Jane. Didn't even bother to cross-ref to the volume I was in.
What resource had the bad link?
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:
What resource had the bad link?
Links plural. As above Psudo Dionesius, Vol 3, the Intro/Commentary volume. Although the other volumes have various unlinked indices as well. Which means you kind of have to guess where the reference is supposed to go.
This is the first time I've use 'History' ... the reference was maybe 8 screens back, in just 24 hours I think. And undated. I'd think the average pastor would want the date, if he's doing sermons over weeks and weeks.
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JT (alabama24) said:
Why have a "reader" instead of a "research" edition? Two good reasons I can think of: 1) time to production and 2) cost to the user. If a book wouldn't benefit as much from a "research edition treatment" and can be made available more quickly and cost effectively, I am all for it.
If a book didn't benefit as much as a Research Edition than it would still benefit. And as it would not be as complicated as a Research Edition the invest isn't also not as expensive as in other books. So I disagree with your logic. And I would support to bring all books to the same level, that means to invest time to push the Reader Editions to the Research Editions.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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Fabian said:
And I would support to bring all books to the same level, that means to invest time to push the Reader Editions to the Research Editions.
Time and money are limited. Would you be willing to pay $100 for a book available elsewhere for $25? Would you be willing to wait 5 years from the time it is available elsewhere?
There are certainly books which should get the "research edition" treatment... but not all.
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