Please, Faithlife/Logos do not go down this road. The result will be a massive exodus of faithful pastors.
Still Stace: My Gay Christian Coming-of-Age Story
https://www.logos.com/product/212934/still-stace-my-gay-christian-coming-of-age-story-an-illustrated-memoir
As a lifelong learner and teacher in a church who is faithful to God's Word, I have invested much time and money in your resources. Publishing this story is disappointing and will cause me to pause regarding future purchases.
Thanks, now I can't unsee this. The worst part of this is the summation of the the book's description:
"Then the possibility of being both gay and Christian seems not just possible, but the best answer of all."
Could we just not.
I preordered this title when it first appeared in the catalog. For the past year the preorder progress has cycled on an almost daily basis between "in production" and "ships". A few additional preorders might help this book to finally ship.
I sort of suspected that was mainly what the pastors cared about. But not to fear ... in the FL magazine, they burnished their credentials, and spent a whole article on a single word. Stomped it to pieces (and the offending translation).
Please, Faithlife/Logos do not go down this road. The result will be a massive exodus of faithful pastors. Still Stace: My Gay Christian Coming-of-Age Story https://www.logos.com/product/212934/still-stace-my-gay-christian-coming-of-age-story-an-illustrated-memoir
So I assume you never buy any books at all from Amazon or B&N...right? I know what bugs you about this title; I just don't understand why. Why are you so bothered by the fact that some people sin? Don't you? If it's the fact that someone is teaching "untruth", doesn't that then make you obliged to avoid practicing and preaching all untruth? You know...to avoid hypocrisy and certain judgment. If the subject matter is contrary to your POV, don't buy it, and speak against it. But tread lightly...I'm 100% certain that you have errors in your theology that are worthy of the same outcome you believe will adhere to those who purchase and support this title.
Logos is a Christian software program company. If they were promoting theft, lying, blaspheme we would be as upset as we are with this. Sodomy is not only sinful, it is unnatural
David Paul,
Amazon and Barnes and Noble do not claim to be a Christian company. The Faithlife mission statement is: "We use technology to equip the Church to grow in the light of the Bible."
Additionally, the book targets children. There is nothing Christian or related to the Fathlife mission to sell such material.
Thank you all for your feedback. At this time, it has been decided to remove the product from the site.
At this time??!!! What does that mean?
Well, "at this time" I don't trust your company at all. Almost weekly since the 1990's I have purchased and supported Logos. Until they make it clear this does not mark a direction for the company, all purchases are stopped.
At least I got to keep Dracula 🧛♂️ But this (now that I read the entire thread) should be banned! Children’s book promoting what? 😳 And it was illustrated 😳
Maybe it’s time for Faithlife to hire someone to monitor the content of their ebook store. Automatic production of such atrocities is not acceptable!
DAL
“At this time”? What does that mean?
It was a children’s book promoting sodomy!!!!!!Faithlife needs to apologize and promise never to allow such materials to be published or promoted by their company.
David and Steve, I apologize for the wording not being clear enough for you. That wasn't intentional to make it appear this was some short term plan. I was just trying to quickly address the original issue and failed to consider the exact phrasing of my response. I've learned a valuable lesson and appreciate your grace in the matter.
I think Stace just got canceled. Sorry, Stace!
I've long wondered what all the furor over "cancel culture" was about. Thanks to this thread, I think I now know.
Mitch, how should we submit to you/Logos our lists of resources of which we want Logos to cease production or sale? Is there a certain number of forum responses in support of a given resource's termination required before Logos will remove it? Or does Logos presume the wisdom and divine inspiration of its forum posters' objections on such matters?
Which angers users such as myself. In my part of the world, at least two mainstream Protestant churches have had gay pastors going back three decades - prominent enough that as a Catholic I am aware of them. ACELO churches (Anglican-Catholic-Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Oriental Orthodox) have had outreach programs and church services aimed at the gay community. Logos/Verbum should be inclusive, assuming that the users are perfectly capable of selecting their own books. I do not believe that Logos or a particular subset of its users should act as censors -- they don't censor popular drivel with atrocious theology and logic but they censor based on some innate sense of the relative weight of proposed sin? Please reinstate the product ... I'll read it and try to deliberately build the market for it, it the resource warrants it. I've done it before.
Nasty version for those not understanding my Biblical position: For those users who are obsessed with impurity (in the sense of the Jew in the Good Samaritan parable), I promise to research the purity rituals associated with pixels that have been used for an unclean ad ... which, since you don't buy offending book, appears to be your real concern.
Resources helping people and pastors develop a faithful thoughtful approach to this subject is one thing. The church is all over the place on outreach centered around sin (i mean, as a baptist I'll point out our regular glutton outreach program). I think as a church we need a better yet still un-compromized, and internally consistent approach generally. I'm not sure this title would have gotten us there simply based on the excerpt that was posted. I do appreciate the haste with which it was taken down. Thanks FL.
I'm not sure this title would have gotten us there simply based on the excerpt that was posted. I do appreciate the haste with which it was taken down. Thanks FL.
They would have had to take it down anyways. The FL apps could never handle the media requirement. Kindle has trouble, but has an interesting feature for media-type resources.
If you remember, 'we' predicted FL would have to go into the filtering/purifying business, when they wanted to do mass title dumps. I suspect, they didn't plan on forcing 'which denomination'. The 'church' at FL is pretty much evangels.
.... I do not believe that Logos or a particular subset of its users should act as censors -- they don't censor popular drivel with atrocious theology and logic but they censor based on some innate sense of the relative weight of proposed sin? Please reinstate the product ... I'll read it and try to deliberately build the market for it, it the resource warrants it. I've done it before. Nasty version for those not understanding my Biblical position: For those users who are obsessed with impurity (in the sense of the Jew in the Good Samaritan parable), I promise to research the purity rituals associated with pixels that have been used for an unclean ad ... which, since you don't buy offending book, appears to be your real concern.
.... I do not believe that Logos or a particular subset of its users should act as censors -- they don't censor popular drivel with atrocious theology and logic but they censor based on some innate sense of the relative weight of proposed sin? Please reinstate the product ... I'll read it and try to deliberately build the market for it, it the resource warrants it. I've done it before.
Well said, MJ. Thank you. (FWIW, I've now launched a review of my personal pixel protestations. So far, so scandalous! [:P])
Resources helping people and pastors develop a faithful thoughtful approach to this subject is one thing.
A thoughtful approach to a subject includes being familiar with the resources those with other opinions are reading. For a hypothetical example, if I say I hate Reformed theology because I can't stand Calvin, I better have actually read Calvin with an open and inquisitive mind. Otherwise, I would merely be expressing my prejudice, bigotry, and un-Christian small-mindedness -- and be presenting a negative image of Christianity to the world.
I think as a church we need a better yet still un-compromized, and internally consistent approach generally.
I agree. Where we differ is what we mean by "un-compromized" -- to me it means that the church reaches out to people where they are - whether they are abusers, abortionists, smokers, gay, thieves, liars, blasphemers ... - accepting them as they are and helping them learn how to change to better reflect Jesus Christ. Put another way, the Church is for all humans all of whom are imperfect and all of them need to be understood as they are. So, yes, I knowingly worship with a man who abuses his wife, a woman who filed a false insurance claim and was surprised I didn't, . . .
Personal note: The gravity of a sin depends upon the circumstances - an old lie cost my high school pingpong doubles partner and his entire family their lives. Murder of the Goldmark family - Wikipedia Lies can be worse than sexual sins.
(FWIW, I've now launched a review of my personal pixel protestations. So far, so scandalous! )
In replacement of Stace's pixelation, I recommend, for ones reading eruditement:
https://www.amazon.com/Sinners-Jesus-His-Earliest-Followers/dp/1602581460
It's not in Logos, so, simmer down.
And it's an excellent volume. But a special feature is (a) how to identify sinners, and (b) how did they (and presumably do they) identify witches. It's not a rhetorical question, but a serious one.
(b) how did they (and presumably do they) identify witches
At Salem, they executed one of my ancestors as a witch (Rebecca Norse or Nurse) ... some historians think the actual issue was property rights ... she was exonerated a couple of decades after her execution. One of the many personal reasons I have no patience with denominational bigotry.
So, yes, I knowingly worship with a man who abuses his wife, a woman who filed a false insurance claim and was surprised I didn't, . . .
To play devil's advocate from both sides:
On one side, at what point are we reaching out to lost people, accepting them as they are and helping them learn vs. condoning sin and allowing them to continue in? Concerning your tax cheat example. Writing a book about a tax cheat who comes to realize what he or she is doing is wrong is one thing, but would it be the same to write a book about a tax cheat who still falls under the umbrella of Christianity but is unrepentant and continues cheating on taxes.
On the other side, I certainly get the concerns about this book, with subject matter being marketed to children, but at what point do we draw the line when it comes to the offerings the of Faithlife? There are certainly vocal people on the forums who would ban everything that doesn't fall in line with their point of view, from books on theology, interpretation, and even ANE texts, Greek Texts, the Deuterocanonicals/Apocrypha, etc...
Does Faithlife have some sort of criteria when it comes to such issues, or is it simply a "you know it when you see it" kind of rule?
Joseph, your points are well taken.
Thank you, Mitch! Your attention to this matter is greatly appreciated.
In the Body of Christ writ large, the view that being a tax cheat is a sin - and therefore calls for repentance - is FAR, FAR, FAR more universal than is the view that being an LGBTQ+ person is a sin. Not for an instant am I asking to debate the issue(!), but I disagree with your setting the two groups of people as analogous to one another.
Resources helping people and pastors develop a faithful thoughtful approach to this subject is one thing. A thoughtful approach to a subject includes being familiar with the resources those with other opinions are reading. For a hypothetical example, if I say I hate Reformed theology because I can't stand Calvin, I better have actually read Calvin with an open and inquisitive mind. Otherwise, I would merely be expressing my prejudice, bigotry, and un-Christian small-mindedness -- and be presenting a negative image of Christianity to the world. I think as a church we need a better yet still un-compromized, and internally consistent approach generally. I agree. Where we differ is what we mean by "un-compromized" -- to me it means that the church reaches out to people where they are - whether they are abusers, abortionists, smokers, gay, thieves, liars, blasphemers ... - accepting them as they are and helping them learn how to change to better reflect Jesus Christ. Put another way, the Church is for all humans all of whom are imperfect and all of them need to be understood as they are. So, yes, I knowingly worship with a man who abuses his wife, a woman who filed a false insurance claim and was surprised I didn't, . . . Personal note: The gravity of a sin depends upon the circumstances - an old lie cost my high school pingpong doubles partner and his entire family their lives. Murder of the Goldmark family - Wikipedia Lies can be worse than sexual sins.
First of all, I was specifically answering MJ's example where she brought up a tax cheat. Second, though you, and many, may believe one way or the other, that still leaves many believing the opposite. When we start giving one group or the other the ability to decide what Faithlife offers, then we are on a slippery slope. I did not and am not getting into the specifics of this issue here, which is why I used the example of the tax cheat from MJ's post.
4. in the information age there are plenty of ways to learn the arguments of an author without purchasing his book. Even if you just spend the day at the library without checking it out.
I agree ... I'm not advocating buying it; I'm advocating staying out of other people's decision to buy/not buy it.
5. Seems pretty presumptuous of you to think I (we as a church) don't reach out to people where they are at. I just think we have to be wise(r) in how we do it.
I didn't mean to imply that ... I meant to imply that individuals have to be informed to be effective in that outreach. I agree that some groups need to be wiser in how they do that outreach.
I'd be glad to join you for coffee even in Bellingham ... I have a daughter and grown grandson there.
Sodomy is not only sinful, it is unnatural
Two quick observations:
Fwiw, behaviors that can only be termed homosexual have been observed in various animal species. Oral stimulation has been documented in squirrels and I believe penguins. There are others as well, but my recollection is fuzzy. Point is, it is a phenomenon that occurs in nature. Nature isn't about "oughts" but about "ises". Whether such actions have been verbally prohibited is a separate issue.
It is amazing how often Bible thumpers place themselves alongside those who sought to stone the woman caught in adultery.
Even if I disagree with the premise of the book in question, I cannot directly refute what it says without accessing the book. That's why I advocated the inclusion of Bart Ehrman's works being available in Logos. Finally, at least a few of his titles are available or soon will be. I'm particularly glad that this title is coming, since Logos has had the companion book by Harper One available for years, which is written as a refutation of Ehrman's book. That one-sided selectiveness is the very definition of partiality.
https://www.logos.com/product/200839/how-jesus-became-god-the-exaltation-of-a-jewish-preacher-from-galilee
First of all, I was specifically answering MJ's example where she brought up a tax cheat.
Part of my confusion was that for the life of me, I couldn't find the post in which MJ (or anyone else) referenced a tax cheat; I still can't. I found a post in which she referenced "abusers, abortionists, smokers, gay, thieves, liars, [and] blasphemers," but not tax cheats. That's not a big deal since its example doesn't alter your point, but it did raise a challenge for me.
Second, though you, and many, may believe one way or the other, that still leaves many believing the opposite. When we start giving one group or the other the ability to decide what Faithlife offers, then we are on a slippery slope.
I share your concerns about slippery slopes. In my view, the objective and ultimate outcome of this thread's OP and several of the posts that responded to it was, in effect, to decide what Faithlife offered in one specific instance. Perhaps you share my view?
I did not and am not getting into the specifics of this issue here, which is why I used the example of the tax cheat from MJ's post.
I don't know how far you got into the specifics of the issue, but in a post that responded to a resource in which LGBTQ+ issues are central, your references to tax cheats and other "lost" people to differentiate between "accepting [the lost] as they are and helping them learn vs. condoning sin and allowing them to continue in" seemed to me to equate - or at least to consider as analogous - LGBTQ+ persons and tax cheats et al. I respect and welcome you to your view!!! But I think it's true that your view was as evident in your post as my view was in mine.
(b) how did they (and presumably do they) identify witches At Salem, they executed one of my ancestors as a witch (Rebecca Norse or Nurse) ... some historians think the actual issue was property rights ... she was exonerated a couple of decades after her execution. One of the many personal reasons I have no patience with denominational bigotry.
How do you exonerate someone after executing them? 🤦🏻♂️ Never mind, Galileo comes to mind!
It still feels wrong! Sorry about your ancestor!
Ah! That's because it doesn't exist! I was thinking of her insurance fraud example, and somehow confused that with tax cheating. I can indeed see where that caused confusion. I profusely apologize for the confusion!
Thank You!
At Salem, they executed one of my ancestors as a witch (Rebecca Norse or Nurse) ... some historians think the actual issue was property rights ... she was exonerated a couple of decades after her execution.
I missed this earlier. As an English, theatre, and Bible Lit teacher, I have taught The Crucible about 60 times as well as produced it on the stage. I even had to take the part of Reverend Samuel Parris because the student I cast had to drop out two weeks before we opened. I even have a copy of The Crucible with transcripts from the original depositions. Of course one would like to think that we would learn from such events, but of course The Crucible was written in response to McCarthyism, so there you have it.
Apology accepted but immediately tossed in the "U" folder... for unnecessary. I'm a bit relieved, though, because I had myself convinced that the tax cheat reference both didn't exist AND had to be in this thread somewhere! Now THAT was a slippery slope! [:)]
Thank you
I wish we could keep the forums about Logos and how to use it. If we wish to discuss availability of resources, then both dissenters and devotees should be respected when they offer their voices--while not descending into snarky doctrinal jousting matches. I am grateful for the sensible choice Faithlife made regarding this book once the nature of it was made known.
Thank you, Faithlife.
I wish we could keep the forums about Logos and how to use it. If we wish to discuss availability of resources, then both dissenters and devotees should be respected when they offer their voices--while not descending into snarky doctrinal jousting matches.
[Y] Amen!
I wish we could keep the forums about Logos and how to use it. If we wish to discuss availability of resources, then both dissenters and devotees should be respected when they offer their voices--while not descending into snarky doctrinal jousting matches. I am grateful for the sensible choice Faithlife made regarding this book once the nature of it was made known. Thank you, Faithlife.
[Y]
Galileo wasn’t executed…
How do you exonerate someone after executing them? 🤦🏻♂️ Never mind, Galileo comes to mind! Galileo wasn’t executed…
Left to rot and to die in prison (house arrest) that’s a form of execution to me and the worst one at that! He had to compromise his beliefs or face death for what he believed. The irony in all of that is that he was actually right!
Anyway, no politic or theology in the forums 😉
How do you exonerate someone after executing them? 🤦🏻♂️ Never mind, Galileo comes to mind! Galileo wasn’t executed… Left to rot and to die in prison (house arrest) that’s a form of execution to me and the worst one at that! He had to compromise his beliefs or face death for what he believed. The irony in all of that is that he was actually right! Anyway, no politic or theology in the forums 😉 DAL
You brought it up. I merely corrected a falsehood. I could correct this one too…
https://www.famousscientists.org/7-scientists-who-died-violently/
Apparently stake-burning was especially popular. Galileo might have got off easy.
How do you exonerate someone after executing them? 🤦🏻♂️ Never mind, Galileo comes to mind! Galileo wasn’t executed… Left to rot and to die in prison (house arrest) that’s a form of execution to me and the worst one at that! He had to compromise his beliefs or face death for what he believed. The irony in all of that is that he was actually right! Anyway, no politic or theology in the forums 😉 DAL https://www.famousscientists.org/7-scientists-who-died-violently/ Apparently stake-burning was especially popular. Galileo might have got off easy.
Has nothing to do with my point, which was your claims on Galileo are factually wrong. Also, it's kind of odd that you were the one who made the "no politic or theology in the forums" comment... and then go on to do precisely that. 🙄
This post is out of character for me, as I tend to avoid toxic issues like COVID-19. I am a sinner. Jesus died to offer me salvation as a free gift for trusting in his righteousness, not my own.
My general advice here is that we all learn from Jesus. A particularly pointed portion of his example, is found recorded in Lk 7.36-50. Friends, walk humbly and fear the LORD.
Has nothing to do with my point, which was your claims on Galileo are factually wrong.
You seem to be replying to me. If so, (from what I can see), sinner-punishment (stakes, prisons, etc) seem to appear across the board, irrespective of denomination. And good catch on Galileo.
The question I've never seen, is what prompts a death sentence in the religious world, and why. There was a time, when it was associated with demon-possession. Stephan had to be stoned to death. Not so Paul. The adulterous woman escaped.
