Logos "we’re launching our next version of Logos as a subscription"
It's disappinting that Logos has decided to launch the next Version as a subscription.
"Welcome! If you’ve landed on this page, we’re guessing you’ve heard the news. This fall, we’re launching our next version of Logos as a subscription. We know there are a lot of questions around why we’re shifting to a subscription model, and we wanted to provide more information on why we’re making the change. Hopefully after reading, you’ll be as excited as we are about what’s to come.
Blessings in Christ.
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Here's a stripped down link: https://www.logos.com/early-access/faq
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Sadly, no thanks. I am glad for what I have.
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- Perpetual access. We’ve received an overwhelming response that our customers want to buy forever-access to Logos features. Our team is taking all your feedback into account, and we are excited to announce perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will be a component of our new subscription model. However, the focus will be on the subscription product. We’re still working out the details, so stay tuned. As always, the content you’ve purchased is yours forever and accessible with or without a subscription.
"Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." - Colossians 4:6
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I received an email today that seemed like they are listening to feedback. Including the ownership model is a potential way forward for a user like myself, who is’t starting at zero. I don’t plan to subscribe.
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Why is Logos moving to a subscription?
...customers have told us that they don’t want to have to wait two years to get new and improved features...
I suppose.0 -
I agree this is disappointing and frustrating. Here's my post from the other thread: I have tried out the new AI features. Here's my opinion:
- Logos is making a mistake moving to a (primarily?) subscription model that's going to hurt them long term. People today have subscription fatigue and are much less likely to sign up if it's a subscription rather than a purchase. With a purchase, you feel you're making an investment with every purchase. With a subscription, you feel much less commitment to a product. Since Logos is also continuing to sell resources, this makes their marketing far more confusing. I imagine trying to explain to someone what they should buy and attaching a subscription to a commentary purchase makes it far less compelling.
- I would rather have no AI features at all than have to pay a monthly subscription for the latest features. The AI features were not very useful, especially if you have used Logos with a (free) ChatGPT window open next to it. You can already copy, paste, and summarize. I did not find the AI search very useful (maybe it will get better?), and the sermon assistant is easily accomplished in ChatGPT apart from Logos. I can see how it would be helpful for people who have never actively used ChatGPT as a tool, but learning to use ChatGPT gives you 85% of the added benefit of Logos Pro, which decreases its value significantly.
- The fact that you're including instant light/dark mode in Pro doesn't make sense. This is not an AI feature and is simply holding back a feature from users who don't subscribe. If this is indicative of Logos' future direction, then this is very disappointing. Logos has always promised that the engine is free to use for your purchased resources. How is this not part of the engine?
- I own the majority of commentaries and resources included in Pro, and yet I get no discount or dynamic pricing on a subscription. How does this make sense for someone like me who has invested so much in Logos? I think you're going to frustrate your primary user base by making this move.
Personally, I will not be getting a subscription, and at this point, I will not be recommending Logos until we see how this pans out. I'm hoping that the subscription model will fizzle, and we'll go back to purchasing feature updates as before. If that happens, I'll continue to commend Logos as a good investment. Until then, I'm not so sure. That's my 2 cents.
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As a safeguard, I made a PDF printout of everything included in my purchase of the Logos 10 Full Feature Upgrade so that I have a verified record of everything I have as part of that purchase in case of the possibility that any of that functionality should get lost and moved to subscription features. I'm honestly not ruling out the possibility of this (contrary to what Faithlife is saying), and I have good reason for that.
Many years ago, going all the way back to the days of version 2 of Logos (before Libronix), I purchased from Galaxie Software the Theological Journal Library CD Volumes 1-5 (designed for version 2 of Logos Bible Software at that time). I had access to all of the included theological journals that were part of the collection both within version 2 of Logos and within the later Libronix. However, since then, only some of those theological journals are now accessible to me in the current version of Logos, but not all of them. After back-and-forth e-mails with support, they said that this would be looked into, but no resolutions were provided that would enable me to access the journals that were accessible to me in Logos version 2 and in Libronix.
That experience has caused me to be skeptical about what was said of any already paid-for functionality not being moved to a subscription in order to be used. It better be true and it better remain true. I'm already not happy with Faithlife as to not being able to access resources I paid for years ago that were accessible previously.
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I have too many subscriptions. I guess I'm going to go into just maintaining unless Logos allows us to make a la carte purchases of tools we need.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
Okay, where is the positive response to their retaining a purchase model as well?
[quote]Perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will remain a component of our new subscription model.
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
It seems like they didn't listen. They are still moving to a primarily subscription model rather than having subscriptions as an optional add-on to utilize AI features. They also didn't give any details on what it means for "feature licensing to be a component of their new subscription model." So that raises concerns as well. It'd be great if we had some specifics.
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MJ. Smith said:
Okay, where is the positive response to their retaining a purchase model as well?
[quote]Perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will remain a component of our new subscription model.
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
Maybe the wording.... That "in some form, will remain a component of our new subscription model".....
A clear statement that "we heard you and will continue to provide the traditional purchase option in addition to our new subscription model" would have been pleasing....
The vague response.... Well it hints towards the "rent to own" model of earning credit for subscribing.... Could be wrong... But due to the insistence of Logos to avoid a direct clarification, we are left with vague information and the carrot on the stick of "working on it"....
I hope they are not planning to announce that "rent to own" path as the perpetual licenses plan - that would be a slap in the face to all who made clear there was no interest in subscriptions of any form....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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MJ. Smith said:
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
I was anticipating more personal interaction in the forums. Concerning the email, I agree with you. It seems clear to me that they listened to user feedback. They have now explicitly promised the option of future feature ownership, which was overwhelmingly desired. As with any change, some users will be displeased while others will be pleased. But I don't think one can make the case any longer that they didn't listen to or care about user feedback.
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Frank Sauer said:
A clear statement that "we heard you and will continue to provide the traditional purchase option in addition to our new subscription model" would have been pleasing....
The vague response.... Well it hints towards the "rent to own" model of earning credit for subscribing.... Could be wrong... But due to the insistence of Logos to avoid a direct clarification, we are left with vague information and the carrot on the stick of "working on it"....
I see your point here, Frank. While IMHO, their response clearly shows that they value user feedback, I agree with your assessment that they appear to strongly favor a rent-to-own model. I would strongly assume that this or a similar model will be included as an option in the Fall. It is less clear whether a purchase-only option will be offered. I can see why this announcement would therefore be unsatisfactory. Perhaps we will receive further good news in the future.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
I was anticipating more personal interaction in the forums.
Well, you DO have to see some humor in their faq ... 'you must have heard ...' since we didn't tell you.
I've pretty much moved on, regarding FL purchasing ... deep sale, maybe, else nope. But 'subscription fatigue' is interesting. Unlike buying (30 days, and your money is now our money), subscription for me, is largely emotional ... so easy to cancel! I don't think I ever got fatigue'd ... I cancel from frustration! Mainly bugs. Bad designs.
But who knows. Maybe FL actualy believes their marketing ... people are begging to subscribe!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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NathanL said:
- Perpetual access. We’ve received an overwhelming response that our customers want to buy forever-access to Logos features. Our team is taking all your feedback into account, and we are excited to announce perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will be a component of our new subscription model. However, the focus will be on the subscription product. We’re still working out the details, so stay tuned. As always, the content you’ve purchased is yours forever and accessible with or without a subscription.
This is inside information, so not all hope is lost! I’ll buy whatever is made available and subscribe to the other features I might need. Hopefully they’ll now do pictures that zoom in and out like Accordance has. See this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/186839.aspx
DAL
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DAL said:
[ Hopefully they’ll now do pictures that zoom in and out like Accordance has.
Given that Logos already does zooming (but only as contractually demanded), I do wonder. Is 'subscription' like a bribe?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Me, too!
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Actually, I don't believe this is an overwhelming revelation. By including Connect subscription in the same category as owners of the Full feature set it was indicated that subscription would include some aspects of ownership.DAL said:NathanL said:- Perpetual access. We’ve received an overwhelming response that our customers want to buy forever-access to Logos features. Our team is taking all your feedback into account, and we are excited to announce perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will be a component of our new subscription model. However, the focus will be on the subscription product. We’re still working out the details, so stay tuned. As always, the content you’ve purchased is yours forever and accessible with or without a subscription.
This is inside information, so not all hope is lost! I’ll buy whatever is made available and subscribe to the other features I might need. Hopefully they’ll now do pictures that zoom in and out like Accordance has. See this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/186839.aspx
DAL
The disappointing thing is that Logos Bible Study won't just plainly reveal that this is the case without all the Hokey Pokey.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.2 1TB SSD
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I am not griping, and I am not subscribing. But I do get it. It is fine with me for Logos to move in that direction. i just do not intend to follow.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
MJ. Smith said:
Okay, where is the positive response to their retaining a purchase model as well?
[quote]Perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will remain a component of our new subscription model.
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
I think this is an excellent move. I'm still anxious generally about the change of hands (its all still new to me, what I know of PE firms makes me uneasy) but the fact they listened and responded with some form of ownership potential is encouraging.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Aaron Hamilton said:Frank Sauer said:
A clear statement that "we heard you and will continue to provide the traditional purchase option in addition to our new subscription model" would have been pleasing....
The vague response.... Well it hints towards the "rent to own" model of earning credit for subscribing.... Could be wrong... But due to the insistence of Logos to avoid a direct clarification, we are left with vague information and the carrot on the stick of "working on it"....
I see your point here, Frank. While IMHO, their response clearly shows that they value user feedback, I agree with your assessment that they appear to strongly favor a rent-to-own model. I would strongly assume that this or a similar model will be included as an option in the Fall. It is less clear whether a purchase-only option will be offered. I can see why this announcement would therefore be unsatisfactory. Perhaps we will receive further good news in the future.
Not sure that I would personally categorize their response in the valuing user feedback realm - but I won't discredit those that see it that way.
IMHO, with the CLEAR message from a majority that they prefer the traditional ownership model.... Playing games with this carrott on the stick is a little insulting as a long time user..... It truly cannot be this hard to make a clear decision and let the customers know!
The continued "working on it" or whatever they want to call it also does not give me confidence in the management of this company going forward.... If they can't figure out that what would reach the most customer satisfaction is a combination of the traditional and subscription models which has clearly been the feedback consensus, I can't see a reason to invest another dollar in this company.
As I've previosuly mentioned, if they believe "rent to own" (which was suggested a couple times) is what the majority was asking for - it's even more insulting as long time customers....
The Logos that I fully invested in and supported appears to be long gone (not counting two employees that I think still fit the old thought pattern), with the newer leadership, product and CEO seem content to go inch by inch and string along a frustrated user base.... Now, it may very well be that the PE firm is the shot caller and giving the instruction to try to force the Subscription model and give an inch here and there until the users cave in, but..... Who knows.... I just know that I deleted my payment info and will be looking at potential sale of my licenses or potential VM setups, because until I have reason otherwise I don't trust the company as is to honor anything....
Maybe, they will surprise us.... But the longer they string us along, the more the risk of turning away, turning off and frustrating a large user base....
The lack of clarity with perpetual licenses, as stated in another thread about the lack of response to requested books, many have mentioned features not yet up to par.... It is hard to be optimistic.
They can't be so blind to not recognize a simple "we have heard you and will continue to offer the traditional purchase option" would go so far in the eyes of the user base....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Every new version was a great incentive to build one's library with new packages. This looks like it's going away. I hope not because subscription runs have practically zero incentive to build a theological library which is Logos' strongest ongoing feature.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Frank Sauer said:
IMHO, with the CLEAR message from a majority that they prefer the traditional ownership model.... Playing games with this carrott on the stick is a little insulting as a long time user..... It truly cannot be this hard to make a clear decision and let the customers know
I understand your response as expressed in this post. Unfortunately, I do discern a fundamental difference between your preferences and the expressed direction of Logos in the future. Even in this announcement, they were careful to state that the focus would be on subscription. So I think there's a little more clarity in their communication than you're giving them credit for, though it's information that seems to conflict with your preferences. It seems to me that they have communicated with their heavy focus on subscriptions that the "traditional ownership model" of features is being phased out, at least partially. I think therein lies the trouble: they are trying to discern whether it's possible to retain a part of the traditional ownership model while still heavily favoring the subscription model. They clearly do not want a lot of users favor a purchase-only model going forward, as was the case in the past.
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Frank Sauer said:
IMHO, with the CLEAR message from a majority that they prefer the traditional ownership model....
Is the sample of customer opinions expressed by in the Forums representative of the population of Logos customers? I am raising a statistical question. Only if the answer is “yes” can you infer (from Forum feedback) that the majority prefer the traditional ownership model.
My guess to my own question is “no”. Why? Because, typically, the sample of people using social media (Forum is an example) is not representative of the true population. Just see your own feed in other social media platforms. Typically, it is the disgruntled who have the incentive to gripe and then take the effort to gripe and then gripe loudly and repeatedly.
Bottom line: Forum opinions may not represent the population of Logos customers.
btw..,I am happy with my Features, which I have not yet fully exploited. I am not one bit interested in subscription or AI.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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MJ. Smith said:
Okay, where is the positive response to their retaining a purchase model as well?
[quote]Perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will remain a component of our new subscription model.
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
Perhaps because it was really buried and still not clear as to what it means? 🤷♂️
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
1Cor10 31 said:
Is the sample of customer opinions expressed by in the Forums representative of the population of Logos customers? I am raising a statistical question. Only if the answer is “yes” can you infer (from Forum feedback) that the majority prefer the traditional ownership model.
Just opining, but several statistical models would work using the forum. But they either operate at the extremes (opposite of tails), or need additional info concerning forum members (especially if member spend is high). The other confounding info is what Bob indicated ... spend was a narrow band. Most Logosians don't.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Aaron Hamilton said:Frank Sauer said:
IMHO, with the CLEAR message from a majority that they prefer the traditional ownership model.... Playing games with this carrott on the stick is a little insulting as a long time user..... It truly cannot be this hard to make a clear decision and let the customers know
I understand your response as expressed in this post. Unfortunately, I do discern a fundamental difference between your preferences and the expressed direction of Logos in the future. Even in this announcement, they were careful to state that the focus would be on subscription. So I think there's a little more clarity in their communication than you're giving them credit for, though it's information that seems to conflict with your preferences. It seems to me that they have communicated with their heavy focus on subscriptions that the "traditional ownership model" of features is being phased out, at least partially. I think therein lies the trouble: they are trying to discern whether it's possible to retain a part of the traditional ownership model while still heavily favoring the subscription model. They clearly do not want a lot of users favor a purchase-only model going forward, as was the case in the past.
I don't necessarily agree.... As they have been clear from the start that they prefer Subscription and that was their projected path forward. They also wanted feedback on it and that feedback has not received a clear response....It is precisely in the arena of actually owning the software without some Rent to Own subscription, where there is no clarity at all.... I am honestly at the point that I could care less if they go subscription only or Rent to Own.... I will no longer deal with nor promote the company, I will steer people clear of the company. It would just be nice to have a clear answer for once, so those of us not interested could make a decision. Your last sentence is my concern.... It is appearing to be that they want users who are going to celebrate a Subscription Model and hopefully they are not trying to push those of us not for it out the door.... It does feel that way at times....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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1Cor10 31 said:Frank Sauer said:
IMHO, with the CLEAR message from a majority that they prefer the traditional ownership model....
Is the sample of customer opinions expressed by in the Forums representative of the population of Logos customers? I am raising a statistical question. Only if the answer is “yes” can you infer (from Forum feedback) that the majority prefer the traditional ownership model.
My guess to my own question is “no”. Why? Because, typically, the sample of people using social media (Forum is an example) is not representative of the true population. Just see your own feed in other social media platforms. Typically, it is the disgruntled who have the incentive to gripe and then take the effort to gripe and then gripe loudly and repeatedly.
Bottom line: Forum opinions may not represent the population of Logos customers.
btw..,I am happy with my Features, which I have not yet fully exploited. I am not one bit interested in subscription or AI.
You may have a point.... My basis is upon the forum sample size and the communication that I have had with Sales, CS and others that pointed to the sentiment reaching beyond the forums.... Including personal connections that I steered into Logos of which 1, maybe two out of a couple dozen could be interested in the subscription for more books, the rest have expressed no interest in anything other than traditional ownership... None of which are on the forums that I know of.... So I am aware that not all users are on here posting, but the sentiment is clear enough that it did make some sort of change - the problem is that the change is so vague it has just led to more frustration and question.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I'm someone who really likes subscriptions for some things. I've had a Logos now subscription since joining in 2016, having access to every feature upgrade, free ebooks and 2 free courses a year seemed like a much better option than buying the whole feature set and instead putting the saved money into resources.
I would love it if Logos had a rent-to-own option and if the new subscription model has features I'm interested in, I'll pay a subscription for it. I did a trial of Logos Pro and have no interest in the current features and won't continue the subscription unless something really useful comes along.That being said, I'm happy paying a subscription, but only if there is there is still an option to purchase "forever-access" features.
If it was subscription only, out of principal I wouldn't subscribe and I'd just stick with my Logos 10 features. I'd be more than happy to still be using Logos 10 in 20 years time, I've got enough resources to last me a life time and I would probably just buy a few commentaries here and there.
"Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." - Colossians 4:6
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Frank Sauer said:
They also wanted feedback on it and that feedback has not received a clear response....It is precisely in the arena of actually owning the software without some Rent to Own subscription, where there is no clarity at all
This email as far as I know containes the first clear response, saying that feature ownership will be possible in the future. I understand that such a statement does not answer every question. But it does clearly state that ownership will be possible. You are entirely correct that purchase-only ownership is the area with the least clarity, and my opinion is that this is because they still don't know if they will be offering such a option. I do believe they have shown that they value user feedback. But they also value a subscription model over purchase-only. So trying to reconcile those potentially competing interests I'm sure poses a challenge. Likely, if purchase-only features are offered, they will be priced in such a way as to discourage most users from going that route.
Probably they should have waited to gather their thoughts more fully before creating all of this confusion. I do believe that much of the feedback was predictable. Three months of this would have been more comfortable than six.
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