Features to help Accordance users
As Logos attracts more Accordance users, there are some features that would make the transition a lot more comfortable for us:
1) Customizable keyboard shortcuts. It's difficult to learn the features of a new app, but being able access those features in familiar ways goes a long way toward making the process less painful.
2) Renaming Tabs. Accordance users generally work heavily with biblical languages. Many are involved in research as students and academics. That typically means they have a lot of tabs open at the same time. It's difficult to keep track of your work when you have 20 open tabs all labelled "Search."
3) Personal Books. Make the import process easier. In Accordance you can import a plain text file, .docx, or PDF, and no special tagging is required (except for simple tagging if you're creating a Bible). You can edit your imported documents after the fact if desired.
I'm sure there are more, but these are what come immediately to mind as I've been learning to use Logos. That being said, Logos is a wonderfully feature-rich application that has far exceeded my expectations.
Comments
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I have and would add a more configurable popup window for parsing information.
I also think that being able to open multiple or nested layouts at once, would be really useful. With Logos it is a one and done thing.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
I have and would add a more configurable popup window for parsing information.
Yes, to both. A more customizable popup window for parsing info would be awesome.
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Mark Allison said:
2) Renaming Tabs. Accordance users generally work heavily with biblical languages. Many are involved in research as students and academics. That typically means they have a lot of tabs open at the same time. It's difficult to keep track of your work when you have 20 open tabs all labelled "Search."
I agree, and as I thought about this, Logos adopted a non-MacOS convention on the X to close the tab. As far as I know, it is the only software package on my macbook that closes tabs on the right.
MacOS
Accordance
Logos
We have pushed back on this before, and the argument did not win the day, but I still advocate that whenever possible, follow the standard OS conventions.
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Hi Mark,
Thank you, and I agree with everything you wrote!
Mark Allison said:2) Renaming Tabs. Accordance users generally work heavily with biblical languages. Many are involved in research as students and academics. That typically means they have a lot of tabs open at the same time. It's difficult to keep track of your work when you have 20 open tabs all labelled "Search."
A typical Accordance workspace for me has 50+ tabs with multiple workspaces (windows) open. It is not only difficult to keep track of stuff in Logos, but impossible. Being able to rename tabs forces me to go to Accordance for complicated language work.
Mark Allison said:
3) Personal Books. Make the import process easier. In Accordance you can import a plain text file, .docx, or PDF, and no special tagging is required (except for simple tagging if you're creating a Bible). You can edit your imported documents after the fact if desired.I would just say that there is no "tagging" needed in Accordance Bibles except for the verse number. The inability to import a simple text file requires me to use Accordance when I teach. Also, along those lines, the whole system is super simple in Accordance. Not only can I import a text file, but re-uploading the text file after changes have been made is a non-issue and I do so multiple times a week in Accordance. The Personal Book in Logos is not only a convoluted process to upload (especially being on a Mac and working in TextEdit), but even updating or deleting Personal Books is a commotion.
I am hesitant to include this, (as it is not part of the program, per se), but Logos really needs to improve the tutorial videos. There are really two main problems with them. The first problem is that they are too general and take forever to explain. For example the "how to do a morph search" is almost 7 minutes long, but after watching it twice I had more questions than I did going into it because it isn't detailed enough. For example, he said to type g: to transliterate some thing. But I never do transliterations. Can I type in Greek? Why is it called a morph search? It sounds like it is short for "morpheme," but the way Logos uses the word "morph" seems to mean "generic search." I then watched one of those beginning webinars and after 50 minutes learned how to organize the home screen, which I really don't access. Apart from videos taking long, basic functions are not explained.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
We have pushed back on this before, and the argument did not win the day, but I still advocate that whenever possible, follow the standard OS conventions.
Good point. This sort of thing makes it appear that the Mac app is a simple port of the Windows app, and not designed from the ground-up as a native Mac app.
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Kristin said:
I am hesitant to include this, (as it is not part of the program, per se), but Logos really needs to improve the tutorial videos
I've noticed the same thing. As more Accordance users begin using Logos, simple, straight-forward tutorials will be important.
Not only that, but if I go to "Help Center" inside the Logos app and perform a search for "Morph query," about half the videos require a purchase, smh.
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Mark Allison said:
if I go to "Help Center" inside the Logos app and perform a search for "Morph query," about half the videos require a purchase, smh
Mark B. has said the purchase portion is being addressed - they will be available to all
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Mark B. has said the purchase portion is being addressed - they will be available to all
Sweet! I was hoping they'd be put in a separate section with a disclosure triangle, but this is going above and beyond!
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Mark Allison said:
This sort of thing makes it appear that the Mac app is a simple port of the Windows app, and not designed from the ground-up as a native Mac app.
Logos is not a "Windows app ported to macOS" but a cross-platform app designed from the ground up with its own UI paradigms that aren't native on either platform. We prioritise having a single code base and a consistent experience in the application no matter which OS it's running on.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
with its own UI paradigms
How about you change your "UI paradigm" so that the close button is on the correct side? :-)
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Mark Allison said:
How about you change your "UI paradigm" so that the close button is on the correct side? :-)
We'll take it under consideration.
😀
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(Chrome and Firefox on macOS put the Close button on the right-hand side of the tab, correct? As does Safari on iOS. Seems like there's a good amount of precedent for this choice of location.)
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
(Chrome and Firefox on macOS put the Close button on the right-hand side of the tab, correct? As does Safari on iOS. Seems like there's a good amount of precedent for this choice of location.)
Warning - Tongue in cheek comment:
Please don't start using Google as a comparative standard for Logos! Firefox is pushing it too, but better!
[:P]
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
(Chrome and Firefox on macOS put the Close button on the right-hand side of the tab, correct?
Firefox puts in on the right. I'm not sure about Chrome because I don't have it installed. Safari definitely puts it on the left because it's a native Mac app.
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Chrome puts it on the right, but Google does not follow all the standard OS conventions.
Look, it's not a deal breaker. Plenty of software providers can be cited. It is just always nice when high software standards extend to sweating the details on stuff like this. If it causes a great drag in common code, I can understand why.
The main feedback on this topic though is that it would be so nice if we could rename tabs to hold different buckets of resources in our workflows. The generic one size fits all makes it harder for demanding users.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
The main feedback on this topic though is that it would be so nice if we could rename tab
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Mark Allison said:
Could you please be a little clearer on whether or not you agree with Donovan's statement? [;)]
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Mark Allison said:
I'm sure there are more, but these are what come immediately to mind as I've been learning to use Logos. That being said, Logos is a wonderfully feature-rich application that has far exceeded my expectations.
Agreed with all of these. I'd like a shortcut to open the library *not* as a separate window, same as clicking on the button, so I could hit the shortcut and then immediate start typing the name of the book I'm looking for, and then the window disappears after I've opened the book.
I'd also add 4) More customization of the text display. Since the whole point here is reading books on a screen, it would be nice to have some more options for how those books are presented (eg font colors for verse references and superscripts, background colors, etc.) This is especially true for mobile but also applies to desktop.
Btw, the location of the X to close doesn't really bother me that much.
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Jonathan Huber said:
Agreed with all of these. I'd like a shortcut to open the library *not* as a separate window, same as clicking on the button, so I could hit the shortcut and then immediate start typing the name of the book I'm looking for, and then the window disappears after I've opened the book.
Alt+L does that on Windows. I'm not sure if there's an equivalent on macOS. (Cmd+L is listed in the Help File, but that might be like Ctrl+L on Windows, which opens it in a new floating window. If it's missing, this is probably an unintentional lack of parity between the platforms.)
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Alt+L does that on Windows. I'm not sure if there's an equivalent on macOS. (Cmd+L is listed in the Help File, but that might be like Ctrl+L on Windows, which opens it in a new floating window. If it's missing, this is probably an unintentional lack of parity between the platforms.)
Yep, I'm on a Mac and Cmd+L open the library in a standalone window. I've tried every combination of modifier keys and nothing else is opening the library. Thanks for checking in on this!
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Mark Allison said:
Firefox puts in on the right. I'm not sure about Chrome because I don't have it installed.
My Firefox puts it on the left. I don't have Chrome anymore, but when I did, it was on the left also since I had downloaded both programs for Mac. Brave is also on the left.
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Kristin said:
My Firefox puts it on the left
Interesting. I wonder what's the difference between your version of Firefox and mine.
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Anon said:
Yes, you can indeed type in Greek. How one accesses that ability is found wherever the little keyboard is on display.
Hi Anon,
Thank you for the screenshot. I am sorry for being unclear in my original post. What I had been trying to convey was how ineffective and limited the Help videos are. The guy (in a VERY....SLOW... voice) explained how I could type g: to transliterate and that was his only remark about typing in Greek. He never even mentioned the symbol you have in your screenshot, which I would argue should have been in the video.
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Mark Allison said:
Interesting. I wonder what's the difference between your version of Firefox and mine.
Hi Mark,
Oh, sorry! Ya, I was thinking of the main close (which I assume is on the left for you also). The little tab xes are on the right. I agree this is inconsistent, but since I rarely use Safari, it hasn't been a big deal for me for Logos to have it on the right. I agree it would be a big deal if I mainly used Safari though.
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Kristin said:
it hasn't been a big deal for m
Honestly, it's not a big deal for me either. It's just a remnant of Windows priority over Mac. And being a Mac user since we were about 1.5% of the market, I probably still have issues I need to deal with when it comes to this sort of thing :-)
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I think the main point of your thread is that when BibleWorks closed shop, Accordance made a brilliant move to ask the BibleWorks community what they would most miss and would love to see in Accordance. I know they made some tweaks that I think really added value.
The ability of rename tabs and to enlarge or tweak the pop up tool tip window which displays parsing information are UI refinements that don’t change the fundamentals of the programme, but really assist in the use case that many Accordance users have become accustomed to. I hope that Logos is open to a few suggestions.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
I think the main point of your thread is that when BibleWorks closed shop, Accordance made a brilliant move to ask the BibleWorks community what they would most miss and would love to see in Accordance. I know they made some tweaks that I think really added value.
Right. Accordance developed the ability to import BibleWorks notes, the "Live Click" feature (which reproduced the BibleWorks Analysis Pane), and the Text Browser, all to help BibleWorks users feel more comfortable in the Accordance app. Turns out Accordance users ended up loving these features too :-)
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Mark Allison said:
the "Live Click" feature (which reproduced the BibleWorks Analysis Pane
Live click turned out to be one of my favourite features brought over from BW. It was clear why they loved it.
Text Browser was an excellent enhancement.
Everyone wins!
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Here's another feature that Accordance users will expect: the ability to have multiple layouts open at the same time. The "layout" in Logos corresponds to the Accordance "workspace," and not having this ability will be a pain point for many former Accordance users.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
I think the main point of your thread is that when BibleWorks closed shop, Accordance made a brilliant move to ask the BibleWorks community what they would most miss and would love to see in Accordance. I know they made some tweaks that I think really added value.
Extremely well said!
Mark Allison said:Accordance developed the ability to import BibleWorks notes, the "Live Click" feature (which reproduced the BibleWorks Analysis Pane), and the Text Browser, all to help BibleWorks users feel more comfortable in the Accordance app. Turns out Accordance users ended up loving these features too :-)
That is a really interesting point.
Since I moved to Accordance after BW died, I actually had no idea the Text Browser hadn't been native! I have always been so grateful to Accordance for making such a conscious effort to improve the lives of BW users, and as a result, I wound up loving Accordance even more than BW. Were you a BW user, Mark?Donovan R. Palmer said:Text Browser was an excellent enhancement.
Everyone wins!
Exactly.
Caring about Accordance needs helps everyone. 1 -
Kristin said:
Were you a BW user, Mark?
No, I've been a Mac user since the early 90s, so I think I went straight from Online Bible to Accordance. :-)
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Mark Allison said:
Here's another feature that Accordance users will expect: the ability to have multiple layouts open at the same time. The "layout" in Logos corresponds to the Accordance "workspace," and not having this ability will be a pain point for many former Accordance users.
While I don't want to detract from the value some Accordance users would find in this, especially since it seems like some Logos users have been wanting this too, I'd like to offer a counter perspective: I've never once in 15 years of using Accordance actually used more than one layout at a time. I've seen videos of people using multiple layouts, I've seen people talk about how they use them, and I've tried using multiple layouts. It just doesn't register for me. My entire use case is a single 13" laptop screen; one zone with lots of tabs. If I need something, I open it; when I'm done, I close it. I do like having multiple saved layouts for different purposes, but I don't use more than one at a time. Logos's saved layouts is more than sufficient for me.
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Jonathan Huber said:
While I don't want to detract from the value some Accordance users would find in this, especially since it seems like some Logos users have been wanting this too, I'd like to offer a counter perspective: I've never once in 15 years of using Accordance actually used more than one layout at a time.
I'd love multiple layouts or workspaces. When I'm researching something in my hebrew window, I want the Qumran resources ... already configured for use (some link, some don't). Or a Church Fathers layout. In greek. And in latin. Again linked as do-able. And a targums layout. So many.
Instead, I stick with 6 windows and use the right-click folders strategy.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Accordance has a great Sermon Editor they call Paper. I would like the capability to drop images that you can later on zoom in and out for those of us who present from our screens. If you’re thinking of subscription features this is a great start: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/186839.aspx
DAL
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Jonathan Huber said:
While I don't want to detract from the value some Accordance users would find in this, especially since it seems like some Logos users have been wanting this too, I'd like to offer a counter perspective: I've never once in 15 years of using Accordance actually used more than one layout at a time. I've seen videos of people using multiple layouts, I've seen people talk about how they use them, and I've tried using multiple layouts. It just doesn't register for me. My entire use case is a single 13" laptop screen; one zone with lots of tabs. If I need something, I open it; when I'm done, I close it. I do like having multiple saved layouts for different purposes, but I don't use more than one at a time. Logos's saved layouts is more than sufficient for me.
This is a good point. Not everyone wants this.
One annoyance I have is in one of the guides if I click to do more study, it dumps my current layout and opens a new one. I wished it could just open the new one and leave my currently layout in the background.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
One annoyance I have is in one of the guides if I click to do more study, it dumps my current layout and opens a new one. I wished it could just open the new one and leave my currently layout in the background.
Can you give a concrete example - I'm not quite understanding?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Can you give a concrete example - I'm not quite understanding?
So if I am in Factbook in a layout I designed, and I want to dig deeper on Roads, the programme closes my current layout and opens a new layout. I accidentally did this a few times, and now I avoid it because to chase down this rabbit hole I break up my workflow in my current layout. It would be nice if multiple layouts could be facilitated and I could use that new layout for a bit, then return to my old layout without having to manually reload it.
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You know, I'd never even noticed that I could change layouts in Factbook. [:$] I agree there should be a quick way back to your original layout.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
So if I am in Factbook in a layout I designed, and I want to dig deeper on Roads, the programme closes my current layout and opens a new layout. I accidentally did this a few times, and now I avoid it because to chase down this rabbit hole I break up my workflow in my current layout. It would be nice if multiple layouts could be facilitated and I could use that new layout for a bit, then return to my old layout without having to manually reload it.
This is my primary reason for running one desktop with Logos and an adjacent desktop with Verbum. One may be used for 'scratch work' without 'upsetting' my primary layout. I have many layouts set for very specific tasks. Also, not updating these primary layouts at session end keeps the original layout as a kind of template. To save the current session without disturbing the template layout, I 'Save as named layout' before I close the session. I don't mind have a large number of saved layouts.
—Solly
Joseph F. Sollenberger, Jr.
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Jonathan Huber said:
My entire use case is a single 13" laptop screen; one zone with lots of tabs. If I need something, I open it; when I'm done, I close it. I do like having multiple saved layouts for different purposes, but I don't use more than one at a time. Logos's saved layouts is more than sufficient for me.
That is really interesting to hear, and it explains a lot why Logos is working well for you. I think for that type of workflow, it would work really well. Personally, I typically have 5-10 Accordance windows (different layouts...) open at the same time spanning two monitors.
One of my frustrations with this "floating window" in Logos is that it is sort of limited how it moves. If Logos is open on the left monitor, I can move the floating window to the right. However, there is now way to flip the two, so the main monitor is on the right and the floating thing is on the left. Perhaps if I totally close Logos and make sure it is open on the right then move the floating window to the left it would work... but I wish it could just move without it being a commotion. Also, if I have the floating window in full screen and then press enter to put it back to normal, it normally just closes the floating window.
Donovan R. Palmer said:One annoyance I have is in one of the guides if I click to do more study, it dumps my current layout and opens a new one. I wished it could just open the new one and leave my currently layout in the background.
For sure. I actually thought I was doing something wrong, but given what you wrote, it sounds like it is just how the program works.
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Kristin said:
For sure. I actually thought I was doing something wrong, but given what you wrote, it sounds like it is just how the program works.
One layout at a time means one layout at a time which is why I hadn't even noticed that I had an option to change layouts rather than open a tool.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I agree there should be a quick way back to your original layout.
When one layout closes and another opens Logos makes a snapshot of your current workspace before opening the new one.
You can use the Layout menu to access and reload the previous (recently closed) one.
One can also "Try" to make a conscious effort to remember to "Save/Update" their current layout before opening a new one.
They don't need to use a bunch of different layout names unless they want to. I would suggest just using a catch-all layout name like "Working" or some such.
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I have a number of different layouts that I use for different projects. One thing I did to make it easier to remember to save my layout before moving to another layout was creating a shortcut to update the active layout.
You can create this shortcut by typing "update active layout" in the command box and dragging the command to the tool bar.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Sam Shelton said:
You can create this shortcut by typing "update active layout" in the command box and dragging the command to the tool bar.
Sweet! I didn't know you could do this. Thanks for the tip!
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Sam Shelton said:
You can create this shortcut by typing "update active layout" in the command box and dragging the command to the tool bar.
This is a GREAT hack! I changed my icon to an up arrow to represent uploading my updated layout.
OK, I can click layouts and update, but this makes it so quick and easy!
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Great idea to change the icon Donovan!
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This is just one of the many helps I have received through the years from the wonderful Logos users on this forum. It is always a great blessing to be able to share such information with others so that they can benefit from it as well.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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