A new type of pre-pub - it isn't in print yet!

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 3:32 PM

Dan Pritchett:
Big projects should not be abandoned because they are too hard to do, or aren't guaranteed to make tons of money.
Let me pause to take that in.  You're right.  In fact big projects should sometimes be tackled with gusto because they can be tackled with gusto.  This is one of them, I'm sure of it. 

Dan Pritchett:
Sure, each scholar has a different level of experience with Logos and some may decide not to use it at all, but some of them are already power-users and others are just now getting their Logos 4 installed as a part of their preparation to begin their research. Would [insert your favorite commentary name here] have been better if all its authors had used Logos in their research?
It's almost unfathomable.  For this reason I would like to imagine that you've given each of the authors the entire 10,000 book catalog that Logos has available.  Seriously.   Don't just hook them up with Scholars platinum.  Give them Logos unobtanium (<<like that?)  so that we can reap the benefits. 

What I'd like to hear more about is the way that E-publishing is going to provide for an even greater commentary than paper publishing.  I don't mean in terms of shear Logos integration - not that I'm making light of it.  But I'm talking about the way that the authors will feel more freedom in going ahead and typing that extra excursis out because they know there's room and it won't end up being cut just because it means more pages.

Dan Pritchett:
Internally, we had to decide whether we were going to go public, despite a few unknowns, or wait a few more months until all the details were worked out.
<tongue location="in cheek" amount="slightly">  Seriously that  can't have been too hard of a choice for Logos, I've watched over the last few years how you have followed the release early, release often mantra.  Heck we're living in it.</tongue> 

Dan Pritchett:
So what about payment plans on something so unusual like this? Refunds? Release schedules? Did we think of that? Yes, we have thought a lot about all these issues and more, and instead of waiting for all the answers we decided to move ahead and get this going. We know how to take care of our customers, and I see points all throughout this thread that encourage me to think that our users are starting to be comfortable with that too. The Pre-Pub price is great and it rewards the early birds with very little risk when they can easily hit "cancel" the first moment it strikes their fancy.
So you've thought about it - but aren't clear on all the details?  Hmm.... I know I should be wary when the Company doesn't have all the details ironed out. But you have a strong track record.  Earlier I stated that I couldn't do it. 

But I'm in. 

I'm in for the very reason you intimate.  By next April I'll know where my finances are, I'll know where these commentaries are going.  And I'll know whether or not I'll need to click cancel.  This is a different kind of prepub, it's already in because you're already in it.

I hate to have a volatile vote - but knowing that's the way it's going to work, I'm willing to get in early. 

Dan Pritchett:
I know for a fact that some of the authors of this series are actually using our software and actively reading our forums right now.
Hi!  I'd like to invite the authors to let us hear a little of their excitement too.   

Rosie Perera:
In any event, it appears to be attempting to fill a difficult niche: engaging with critical scholarship while maintaining an evangelical viewpoint. Usually you end up with one or the other.

The part that really got me was...

This commentary would uphold the Bible as God’s inspired Word, but it would be ready to engage in rigorous critical scholarship—the kind of scholarship respected in both evangelical and secular circles, and everywhere in between.

< http://www.evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/about/ >

 

With a starting foundation that God's word is God's word, the commentary already begins to fill a niche for me.  I am in love with scholarship, but I am in love with God and his word first.    This more than anything else about this series got me interested. 

Andrew McKenzie:
Dan while we appreciate the initial response and appreciate not all questions can be answered Richard makes a point that Logos really need to go back and look at if they want us as customers to get behind this project with open arms. There needs to be some sort of 6, 9 or 12 month payment plan on this project for us to seriously consider getting behind it. We do indeed live in exciting times, the best of times even, but also in another sense the worst of times.
I still want a payment plan Andrew.  I don't know if one will be forthcoming.  I do believe that in this case I at least have a known time frame for planning.  I have seven months to start saving, though it's a bit optimistic to think that  I'll be able to save the full amount by then.   I'm just going to have to take the stance that I'll save what I can, read the releases as they come and make a decision before it costs me a $.


Edwin Bowden:
I'm sure there will be an ongoing discussion as this project develops.

Indeed, and it's my hope that not only Logos personnel but also perhaps some of the authors might provide dialogue.  That would indeed make sure that these exciting times stay that way.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 4:01 PM

I for one just don't think it's fair to ask us to pay full price for a product that likely won't be in our hands for as much as TEN YEARS.  I don't know of anyone who does that.  Why not subscribe and get charged the per book price, like a book club? If the development is already paid for why not? Why ask consumers to pay for something they won't see for TEN YEARS?

It's one thing to say "sign up for the project, you'll like the whole series even though you have to wait a long time to see it."That takes a little bit of thought and consideration.  HOWEVER, it's another thing entirely to say "PAY FOR the entire series, it will be a very long time before you get it."

It's hard enough to see the project won't be done until the early 2020s, but to have paid for the whole thing AND not seen it....no thanks...

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 4:21 PM

Dan Pritchett:

Yes, it really is a bold plan.

It is so bold, that no one in the traditional print publishing industry thought it could be done. I know what some of you are thinking... "The people reading this thread right now think it can't be done too!"  

Yes it is a bold plan. I have only an inkling of the risk Logos is taking in doing it. But from what I understand of that risk, I appreciate and affirm what you're doing.

Thanks for the rest of your response too. I look forward to finding out more about this series, it's authors, and seeing a few hors d'ourves of material to keep me hungry for the first release in April, 2011 (or there abouts).

BTW, was your discussion about this thread this morning over espresso, or just plain americano. An anxious forum wants to know. Wink

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 4:32 PM

I wasn't going to getthis, but having read this thread and dan's note, i subscribed to the pre-pub--mostly as an offering to further helpful work.  I'd rather the authors take the time to write right than to feel a need to push out product. It would be nice to space out thebill though--that will be a chuck ofchange for what my spouse will see as one computerfile Tongue Tied Big Smile

Posts 47
Dean J. Ferguson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 4:49 PM

A great idea in advancing biblical studies--Yes.  A strong set of contributors--Yes.  A reasonable overall price--Not bad.  Planning to reach publication deadlines into the future--Hopeful.  Initial outlay of cash--painful.  It is hard to face the purchase of a $700.00 commentary on the release of the first voulme.  I realize that the pain will go away as time goes on (they say tme heals all wounds).  It would be nice if there were additional consideration for those who might jump in early.  Perhaps a partial charge against an account on an annual basis until the entire $700.00 is reached.  If the series will be delivered over the course of ten years, provide a payment plan over five years with a promise to stay with the project until the end.  The customer gains some consideration and Logos gains some advantage.  Perhaps everyone gains?

The water may look fine right now, but I think it is too cold to jump in.  I hope that Logos will warm up the pool so I can jump in.  The promise of learning from the promised authors is exciting, but the initial outlay brings expectations that perhaps I should seek out these men and women in the heavenly kingdom an listen to their insights into the Scripture.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 4:51 PM

Edwin Bowden:

This set is a payment plan in reverse:  We pay up front and hope to get the volumes over the next decade!

Funny, but true. It is just the reverse of Logos giving us a resource and offering an interest free payment plan. Something they have done many times.

In addition to the history making changes in publishing, this represents several new developments within the Logos marketing plan.
1) For those who have the various "incomplete" commentay sets in Logos (Anchor Yale Bible, Pillar New Testament Commentary, Cornerstone Biblical Commentary) it will be a real pleasure to receive the volumes as published without a $30~40 hit per title.
2) I am very grateful to have purchased the Zondervan Bible Reference Bundle (87 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/5656 as a Pre-Pub. It was difficult to make the outright purchase but well worth it. Several people wanted the Zondervan titles released as they were completed but still enjoy the maximum savings of the complete collection, not realizing the licensing agreement did not facilitate that option. With ECC we have the individual titles released as they are completed. We still get the super Pre-Pub price but have to pay it upfront.

I am understanding of all the points raised in this thread. Some of us will not be on this planet in 2019. (My personal life expectancy gets "iffy" by that date.) As long as the license is transferable I think it is a great investment. As Richard just said, we are building something that will outlast our lives and bless the church for the next century.

All that said, it would be very helpful if Logos could set up a "layaway" account we could begin paying into to address these large Pre-Pub orders when they roll out. I already have the Anchor Yale Reference in Pre-Pub. (It is helpful to have a firm billing date for ECC. I wish all large Pre-Pubs were announced well in advance. Gottengin Septuagint is a good start. http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/4951 )

Thomas Black:
Dan Pritchett:
Big projects should not be abandoned because they are too hard to do, or aren't guaranteed to make tons of money.
Let me pause to take that in.  You're right.  In fact big projects should sometimes be tackled with gusto because they can be tackled with gusto.  This is one of them, I'm sure of it. 

I just don't understand why it will take 9 more years when there are multiple authors involved. Can't they all be working on their respective volumes at the same time? If they have commitments for the next 5 years before they can start, are they not being presumptuous to a fault? I am probably showing my ignorance of the publishing industry but the old fashioned subscription model was a check-kiting scheme.< Volume one was shipped and the profits were channeled to future volumes> The ECC http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/7565  model is different, actually Biblical Luke 14:28~31 , like the rest of Logos Pre-Pubs.

I think this is worthwhile and although I don't think Evangelical & Critical Scholarship are mutually exclusive terms, I think adding this to NICOT/NICNT http://www.logos.com/products/details/5184  & Word Biblical Commentary http://www.logos.com/products/details/3671  will help the church. Even if I don't live to see the last volume...........................

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 5:38 PM

Matthew C Jones:
I just don't understand why it will take 9 more years when there are multiple authors involved. Can't they all be working on their respective volumes at the same time?

I wondered the same thing. But I suppose it comes down to the bandwidth of the editorial team. Three of the volumes haven't even been assigned authors yet, and assuming some of the authors are committed for the next year or so and can't finish their respective volume for four or five years, the editors will have to carefully review each volume for consistency, etc. At 44 volumes, suppose it takes them a month per volume to review, we're talking another four years there. And then there's all the Logos mark-up. I can certainly see it taking 7-9 years to get them all done. They are probably wise in allowing plenty of time.

I recently participated as a contributor to the Encyclopedia of Christian Literature, which ended up being a two-volume, 700+ page tome by the time it was done. It was a big eye-opener for me about what-all goes into producing a major reference work. I initially was signed on to the project in May 2007, but it had already been underway since at least October 2004 (the date when the prospectus document they sent me was created). I finished my submission by August 2007. It was initially promised to be published in late 2007, but that date kept slipping and it finally didn't see the light of day until 2010. I honestly don't know what caused all the delay. Part of it was probably due to some incompetence somewhere along the chain. But all this just to say that "things happen" in the publishing world. People get sick or die or don't finish what they were supposed to finish, things get reassigned to new writers, editors, etc.

So...I'm glad they are being honest up front that it's going to take a long time rather than promising it all in 2014 and then disappointing us for five years. Then again, I hope they don't disappoint us after we've waited 9 years for it... But the nice thing about this is that we'll be thrown little tidbits along the way to keep us happy.

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Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 5:44 PM

Rosie Perera:
But the nice thing about this is that we'll be thrown little tidbits along the way to keep us happy.

Those tidbits cost you $700, one would think an alternative would be worth considering...

Posts 2507
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 5:49 PM

I also have the Anchor Yale Reference Library and the Gottengin Septuagint on prepub, so I might as well get this one too.   I don't know if I will have the funds available when the first volume is released, but as least I have time to save.

 

Posts 19262
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 5:52 PM

Thomas Black:
Dan Pritchett:
I know for a fact that some of the authors of this series are actually using our software and actively reading our forums right now.
Hi!  I'd like to invite the authors to let us hear a little of their excitement too.   

Likewise. And I hope the authors that are reading the forums are learning all kinds of awesome things they can do with Logos that will help them in their efforts. For example, someone recently just asked about using visual filters to color all the Eissfeldt sources and I answered. While that might not be something contemporary scholarship is still doing massive amounts of work with, it still might come in handy for a commentary author.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 5:58 PM

Dominick Sela:

Rosie Perera:
But the nice thing about this is that we'll be thrown little tidbits along the way to keep us happy.

Those tidbits cost you $700, one would think an alternative would be worth considering...

The sum of all the "tidbits" costs $700. And I agree that an alternative in the form of a payment plan would be in order. I was just pointing out that for those who do plunge in at the beginning, the fact that a few volumes will be released each year will help keep them from getting antsy about the finishing of the entire series, even if the money has already gone out of their accounts.

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Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 6:09 PM

Rosie Perera:
The sum of all the "tidbits" costs $700

One could argue the first tidbit costs you $700. No money, no tidbit.  Wink

Posts 383
Daniel Bender | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 6:53 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
I did preorder, but mostly to lock in the price. The authors look interesting enough to warrant the price, I think. I'll keep looking into this and decide whether or not to cancel my pre-order later.

Ditto.

 

Posts 19262
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 7:04 PM

Dominick Sela:

Rosie Perera:
The sum of all the "tidbits" costs $700

One could argue the first tidbit costs you $700. No money, no tidbit.  Wink

By that logic, your first issue of Christianity Today costs the price of an annual subscription. Wink 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 7:41 PM

Dominick Sela:

Rosie Perera:
But the nice thing about this is that we'll be thrown little tidbits along the way to keep us happy.

Those tidbits cost you $700, one would think an alternative would be worth considering...

It is a little bit like buying a car. If you put cash on the table you get a better price. This analogy doesn't work all the way through.  (MJ will confirm most of my analogies don't Wink , and she is correct.) Buying the car, you get to drive the whole thing home on purchase day.Automobile

Looking at the authors already assigned, I expect this set to be be well worth the Pre-Pub price. If I never get to use those tidbits maybe my grandsons can use them in sermon preparation. It could turn out to be the best thing I leave to them.

 

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 7:53 PM

Thomas Black:
Andrew McKenzie:
Dan while we appreciate the initial response and appreciate not all questions can be answered Richard makes a point that Logos really need to go back and look at if they want us as customers to get behind this project with open arms. There needs to be some sort of 6, 9 or 12 month payment plan on this project for us to seriously consider getting behind it. We do indeed live in exciting times, the best of times even, but also in another sense the worst of times.
I still want a payment plan Andrew.  I don't know if one will be forthcoming.  I do believe that in this case I at least have a known time frame for planning.  I have seven months to start saving, though it's a bit optimistic to think that  I'll be able to save the full amount by then.   I'm just going to have to take the stance that I'll save what I can, read the releases as they come and make a decision before it costs me a $.

Yeap I agree we have time to save, but it comes back to the issue if people commit to this they are potentially going to cancel other pre-pubs to do so, and they are then faced with a choice of dropping something they know they are going to get full value for they're money upfront v something they are not going to get full value for till ten years down the track..... now ten years down the track they will (hopefully) look back and say that was a good buy, if they can get over the fact they are asked to being asked to pay $700 for the first volume..

... now that's a bit more than a magazine subscription which for which you normally expect to get your accrued value within 12 or 24 months rather than 120 or potentially more months.  I'm in for now and will see what happens .... off to cull some other pre-pub orders though in the meantime. There's a limit to how much I can save.

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Dan Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 3 2010 10:58 PM

Thomas Black:
What I'd like to hear more about is the way that E-publishing is going to provide for an even greater commentary than paper publishing.  I don't mean in terms of shear Logos integration - not that I'm making light of it.  But I'm talking about the way that the authors will feel more freedom in going ahead and typing that extra excursis out because they know there's room and it won't end up being cut just because it means more pages.

Thomas, you are right on! This is a theme I really care about, and brought up in a blog post a few years ago named, Tell me everything you know—in five words or less...

Since that post, Bob and I have had many "discussions" Angel about whether that is a good idea or not, because editing is a lot like refining gold. Take a massive lump, remove the dross, get pure gold, forge it into a nice ring. I agree that editing is great for that purpose if all you want is a nice gold ring. That's what the abridged version is for... but why not have the unabridged and "seriously extended" version available too, so when you really need to know why your uncle Bilbo Baggins is trying to attack you and get that nice ring back, you can go all the way back to the mountain they mined the gold in, the river they found it in, and the battles fought over it.  Stick out tongue

We will definitely have an option for a special type of payment plan. We don't have the technical specs in place to even offer a payment plan on Pre-Pubs right now, and we don't think this will necessarily fall into even the normal payment plan style. In other words, no matter what happens, it will most likely all be handled on a personal interaction level, with a range of options for the best way to handle it for each customers' unique situation and preferences.

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Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 4 2010 4:33 AM

Rosie Perera:

One could argue the first tidbit costs you $700. No money, no tidbit.  Wink

By that logic, your first issue of Christianity Today costs the price of an annual subscription. Wink 

Yep - but I don't think a subscription costs anywhere near $700 - people wouldn't be discussing this if the price was $50  Wink

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 4 2010 4:39 AM

Dan Pritchett:
We will definitely have an option for a special type of payment plan.

Based on this, I put in my order.

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 4 2010 7:10 AM

Dan Pritchett:
We will definitely have an option for a special type of payment plan. We don't have the technical specs in place to even offer a payment plan on Pre-Pubs right now, and we don't think this will necessarily fall into even the normal payment plan style. In other words, no matter what happens, it will most likely all be handled on a personal interaction level, with a range of options for the best way to handle it for each customers' unique situation and preferences.
Dan, You just struck gold.  (pun intended)

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

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