A new type of pre-pub - it isn't in print yet!

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 5:34 PM

Rosie Perera:
This made a bit more sense in the print era, but perhaps publishers need to rethink things now in the digital era.

Agreed only 1 copy need gather dust in a digital warehouse but I can understand why for EEC to get it off the ground and running you need to sign up for the whole set... at some point I hope if would too be available by single volume.. I can see why that might not happen though till after complete set is released, but thinking as a customer I'd hope that'd happen sooner for users who simply can't buy the whole set or genuinely have an interest in only a handful of volumes.  I would hope though that there is a 'law of diminishing returns' though at which at some point you are better of buying the whole set rather than purchasing individual volumes.

Posts 427
Wilson Hines | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 7 2010 9:32 AM

Can somebody explain this marketing jargon for me?: "New standard in evangelical research"  - Exactly what does this mean?   That is a broad brush comment, IMHO. Will these scholars take an approach, method, or use of technology that will make this commentary an evolutionary jump over the NIC or WCC? 

Wilson Hines

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 7 2010 9:45 AM

Wilson Hines:

Can somebody explain this marketing jargon for me?: "New standard in evangelical research"  - Exactly what does this mean?   That is a broad brush comment, IMHO. Will these scholars take an approach, method, or use of technology that will make this commentary an evolutionary jump over the NIC or WCC?

Wilson,

I believe it's a marketing goal.  Nobody can make something to be that standard, but they can certainly write and labor to the end that what they produce fits the requirements for that standard.  I guess the question is, what is the definition of the standard?  That would be the best way to clarify the goals of the EEC.

Like you, I'd appreciate more commentary about this commentary from the commentators.

 

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 30
williamvarner | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 7 2010 10:36 AM

I speak for myself. I do not speak for Logos or for the other commentators.

I own around a thousand commentaries and have used commentaries from every major series, so I know something about their format and purpose. No commentary is totally unique and anyone who says that is foolish or lying. While there may be a bit of marketing rhetoric in the announcement by Logos about the EEC, I do think that it will make a special contribution to the genre.

Commentaries are sometimes (1) simply a collection of word studies strung together, oftentimes with little or no sense of how it all fits together. Commentaries are also (2) simply comments on other commentaries. ("Here are the views and who holds them. Now here is the correct interpretation - mine.")   I know that sounds a bit jaded and cynical, but those who have used commentaries extensively will, I think, agree with my general observations. Furthermore, most cmmentaries do little application of the passage or make any effort toward helping the expositor prepare the passage for preaching and teaching.  Usually the expoisitor has to read (1)  a technical language based  commentary, (2) an expository commentary, and (3) a devotional commentary to get the help he/she really desires.

Again, I speak for myself, but I see my task in approaching each passage, to (1) describe the overall structure of the paragraph; (2) to provide exegetical notes on the lexical and semantic details of the passage, and (3) to offer suggestions about the real meaning of the passage for life along with ideas about an  expository outline for presenting the passage orally.

As to the tools for this analysis, Logos has an abundance of them, although they have not insisted that we use this or that in Logos to accomplish these goals. I appreciate the way in which they have tried to communicate to us the overall goals of the commentary, but allowed us freedom in how to accomplish those goals.

The digital format will allow for hyper-text links and other means that can only be accomplished in that format. The way in which Logos does that with existing commentaries should illustrate what I mean.

If  the EEC accomplishes those goals in its overall thrust and also in each individual commentary remains to be seen, but I personally am quite excited to be part of the effort.

Now, while I would love to be part of this continuing conversation, please do not ask me to answer specific questions to answer. I have my courses and my preaching to attend to for the next months. Oh, yes, there is that small matter of the commentary on James too!

 

Posts 427
Wilson Hines | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 7 2010 10:36 AM

To all, thanks for this thread.  Thomas, I have so many mixed emotions about this topic I can't even begin to start.  

Over all:  I don't like commentaries.  I said over all.  The reason is I think way to many people rely on them like crutches.  My goal in working with the scripture is that I will become familiar with the text in English and then in it's original language, as much as possible.  I think the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself, and then we move forward.  In other words, what does other passages say about this passage with which I am working.  I use commentaries to figure out whether or not my exegesis is consistent with reality.  I rarely get taught much by a commentary.  I think that is a shame.  I didn't say I never get taught anything.  I am just saying I rarely get taught much.  A tool like the ABD has been more valuable to me than anything in my library as far as none linguistic resources.

The single resources which I get the most frequent and most valuable "hits" from is the Expositor's Greek Testament, and this is in hardback on my shelf. The E.G.T is technically a commentary, I guess, but more of a background on what is going on with the language, IMHO.  I get "WOW" moments in this resource.  I don't understand why it has taken so long for this product to move in the pre-pub system.  

Anyway, I am wary of commentaries.  The scholars involved with this work is the reason why I am comforted.   Admittedly, I'm not looking for a work that pastor's or laymen would desire.  And if this is what this is, I still am not certain I am going to buy the E.E.C. (Hence, the reason we need samples).

On the "expanding my horizons" front:  I hope when I attend Dallas Theological that they will either put the nail in the coffin with commentaries for me, or make me want to use them properly.  

After rambling about all of this, after reading this thread and consulting with my sales guy, I have intrepidly signed up for the pre-pub.  I hope my wife doesn't find out the stipulations of this pre-pub, as I may get thrown a pillow and blanky!  Quite frankly, under the guise of the same known hurdles, if the name Logos wasn't involved and it was Barnes and Nobles, Amazon.com, or whomever, we would be raving idiots whom could rightfully so be accused of financial stupidity - and everybody here, including the Pritchetts know this to be true.

So much for "I'll pray about it."  LOL  I guess I will pull the trigger, due to the raising price, and pray about it along the way, asking God for wisdom for an unemployed, full time student, whose wife could find him worth more dead (life insurance) than alive.  Don't get me wrong, my couch is really comfortable LOL. 

Wilson Hines

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 7 2010 10:41 AM

I only quote the later portion, But Wilson, I swear we're brothers and our wives are sisters.  'nuff said. 

Wilson Hines:
after reading this thread and consulting with my sales guy, I have intrepidly signed up for the pre-pub. I hope my wife doesn't find out the stipulations of this pre-pub, as I may get thrown a pillow and blanky! Quite frankly, under the guise of the same known hurdles, if the name Logos wasn't involved and it was Barnes and Nobles, Amazon.com, or whomever, we would be raving idiots whom could rightfully so be accused of financial stupidity - and everybody here, including the Pritchetts know this to be true.
 
So much for "I'll pray about it." LOL I guess I will pull the trigger, due to the raising price, and pray about it along the way, asking God for wisdom for an unemployed, full time student, whose wife could find him worth more dead (life insurance) than alive. Don't get me wrong, my couch is really comfortable LOL.

LOL indeed.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 7 2010 11:03 AM

Wilson Hines:
 I think the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself,

Quite a healthy outlook.  I do encourage you to consider learning from the maturity (and mistakes!) of the fellow travelers who walk in the way beside you. The receptiveness of the disciples as they walked the road to Emmaus is striking. After all, they were THE DISCIPLES of this Jesus fellow. Why should they bend there ear to this stranger who walked with them? Yet they listened and later said,""Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"  Luke 24:32

Sometimes God will not speak to you directly but through the person who walks in the way with you, be that a little boy in the temple, your wife, or even a commentator.

Wilson Hines:
"I'll pray about it."
    Keep praying about it even after the order is in. If God wants you to have it He will ultimately be the one who provides the funds to purchase it.  And if Logos keeps up the Pre-Pub flood, my kneecaps will resemble a hippo's.

 

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 5621
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 7:13 AM

Jonathan:

I am excited about this commentary set. I only wish that Logos would move away from the philosophy of only selling an entire set. It would be nice if we could order commentaries on an individual basis.

I love a number of the NICOT/NICNT commentaries, but will not buy them on Logos. Why do we have to buy a set of commentaries (ranging from $700-2000) to get the four-five commentaries that we are interested in? I would ask Logos to take a serious look at changing this part of their marketing philosophy. I think you would sell a lot more commentaries and probably pick up a number of new users.

I understand that Logos is at the hands of the publisher in some instances, but with EEC Logos is the publisher! I wonder if Logos is actually the  one who does not want to sell commentaries on an individual basis.

Jonathan expresses my thoughts too.

I find the requirement to buy the whole set very unfortunate.  First of all, I can't think of an instance where I would buy an entire commentary set without reviews and recommendations from others who have used it.  So there's no way I'm going to preorder a set that has yet to be written.  Therefore, I'm going to have to wait until this set is released to see if there are volumes I want, and if there are, I'll be forced to buy the abridged print edition (assuming individual volumes are available in print, which isn't a given either), since Logos won't sell the digital ones individually.  Isn't this a step backwards?  What's the motivation for not selling individual volumes?

 

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 12:16 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Wilson Hines:
 I think the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself,

Quite a healthy outlook.  I do encourage you to consider learning from the maturity (and mistakes!) of the fellow travelers who walk in the way beside you. The receptiveness of the disciples as they walked the road to Emmaus is striking. After all, they were THE DISCIPLES of this Jesus fellow. Why should they bend there ear to this stranger who walked with them? Yet they listened and later said,""Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"  Luke 24:32

Sometimes God will not speak to you directly but through the person who walks in the way with you, be that a little boy in the temple, your wife, or even a commentator.

Wilson Hines:
"I'll pray about it."
    Keep praying about it even after the order is in. If God wants you to have it He will ultimately be the one who provides the funds to purchase it.  And if Logos keeps up the Pre-Pub flood, my kneecaps will resemble a hippo's.

 

 

I really like your analogy Matthew. I do not see commentaries as crutches but as broadening of the circle God can use to speak to me. It happens some times, I read them in expectation all the time Smile. Sometimes God speaks to us through lexicon like TWOT Surprise ...very often he speaks to me through my wife (what is obvious since the time of Abraham - Gen 21:12 Smile ).

 

Bohuslav

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 12:57 PM

Todd Phillips:
So there's no way I'm going to preorder a set that has yet to be written.  Therefore, I'm going to have to wait until this set is released to see if there are volumes I want,

If you bought NICOT/NICNT for $600 or WBC for $300 in Pre-Pub, you'd be skipping through this forum thread. Stick out tongue 

I'm still weighing my purchase decision on EEC. I've settled a few points others are still wrestling with.

  • I have no problem with the production side of the project. I know Logos will fulfill their responsibilities. (Remember how fast the Zondervan collection was completed after the announcement?)
  • I am familiar with many of the names slated to write individual commentaries and trust their abilities.
  • The Pre-Pub price is well within reason for what I am offered.
  • If the project is not completed in my lifetime, at least others will benefit from my purchase.

Todd Phillips:
without reviews and recommendations from others who have used it.

  • I even have a different outlook on this speed bump. When I consult BestCommentaries<dot>com I notice not every volume of the premier sets rates at the top. This can be attributed to multiple authors as well as authors writing outside their area of expertise. If the EEC gives us a first look at a stellar volume it will not be a guarantee all subsequent volumes will be stellar. If the first look disappoints you it could lead to you canceling out on better volumes to follow.  Just a thought.

I would rather Pre-Pub the whole EEC at the intro price than wait ten years and buy the volumes at $70 a piece. 

The hardest part of committing is, as my mom would say about my plate of food at Thanksgiving Dinner, "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach." Will I end up canceling Pre-Pubs because they all ship at once? Tongue Tied

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 427
Wilson Hines | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 1:15 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Todd Phillips:
So there's no way I'm going to preorder a set that has yet to be written.  Therefore, I'm going to have to wait until this set is released to see if there are volumes I want,

If you bought NICOT/NICNT for $600 or WBC for $300 in Pre-Pub, you'd be skipping through this forum thread. Stick out tongue 

I'm still weighing my purchase decision on EEC. I've settled a few points others are still wrestling with.

  • I have no problem with the production side of the project. I know Logos will fulfill their responsibilities. (Remember how fast the Zondervan collection was completed after the announcement?)
  • I am familiar with many of the names slated to write individual commentaries and trust their abilities.
  • The Pre-Pub price is well within reason for what I am offered.
  • If the project is not completed in my lifetime, at least others will benefit from my purchase.

Todd Phillips:
without reviews and recommendations from others who have used it.

  • I even have a different outlook on this speed bump. When I consult BestCommentaries<dot>com I notice not every volume of the premier sets rates at the top. This can be attributed to multiple authors as well as authors writing outside their area of expertise. If the EEC gives us a first look at a stellar volume it will not be a guarantee all subsequent volumes will be stellar. If the first look disappoints you it could lead to you canceling out on better volumes to follow.  Just a thought.

I would rather Pre-Pub the whole EEC at the intro price than wait ten years and buy the volumes at $70 a piece. 

The hardest part of committing is, as my mom would say about my plate of food at Thanksgiving Dinner, "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach." Will I end up canceling Pre-Pubs because they all ship at once? Tongue Tied

 

 

Todd you hit the nail on the head.  The pre-pub people at Logos need to have better timing.  I know they would be smarter by releasing those pre-pubs out once a week for 10 weeks or 15 weeks (for example), even thought they finished all 10 of them on the very same day.  Why?  Because I want all of them.  When they go to rapid firing, I am going to cancel some of it.  The other way, they successfully get all the transactions, instead of one or two or maybe three.  IMHO.  

Wilson Hines

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 1:44 PM

Matthew wrote:   Will I end up canceling Pre-Pubs because they all ship at once? Tongue Tied  
(I don't want to speak for Todd, even tho" he would be wise to agree with me. Wink )

Wilson Hines:
Todd you hit the nail on the head.  The pre-pub people at Logos need to have better timing.  I know they would be smarter by releasing those pre-pubs out once a week for 10 weeks or 15 weeks (for example), even thought they finished all 10 of them on the very same day.  Why?  Because I want all of them.  When they go to rapid firing, I am going to cancel some of it.  The other way, they successfully get all the transactions, instead of one or two or maybe three.  IMHO.  

I agree with you Wilson. I would make one adjustment to your proposal: Offer a monthly transaction date for those of us who are constrained in that fashion.

side thought: The rate 401k and mutual fund performance has been these last few years, we would all be ahead to cash out and buy everything Logos!          .......  donchaThink?

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 5794
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 2:11 PM

Wilson Hines:
Over all:  I don't like commentaries.  I said over all.  The reason is I think way to many people rely on them like crutches.  My goal in working with the scripture is that I will become familiar with the text in English and then in it's original language, as much as possible.  I think the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself, and then we move forward.  In other words, what does other passages say about this passage with which I am working.  I use commentaries to figure out whether or not my exegesis is consistent with reality.

Wilson I share some of your philosophy,  in that in the first instance we should be not relying up on secondary sources but going straight to the primary source.   Whether one is a layperson, a preacher or a scholar of the original languages, our primary focus should be upon God's Word.  We can become lazy and rely upon secondary sources without first getting acquainted with the scriptures for ourselves. 

For the layperson they make their minister's preaching as there primary examination of the text. A sermon as good as the preacher may be, is a secondary source.  Even when we have a minister of the Word whom we know preachers the whole scripture, and nothing but the scripture, faithfully and is prepared to say the things we'd rather not hear, I think the layperson is missing out on so much if they don't learn how to read and ask questions of the text themselves. They may well run into questions they can't answer and that is then where secondary sources  come into to play;  combination of preaching, discussion within a bible study group, and a good commentary and bible dictionary. If preacher's and scholars aren't getting into the text for themselves but simply relying on someone else's work.... perish the thought.

Matthew C Jones:

Quite a healthy outlook.  I do encourage you to consider learning from the maturity (and mistakes!) of the fellow travelers who walk in the way beside you. The receptiveness of the disciples as they walked the road to Emmaus is striking. After all, they were THE DISCIPLES of this Jesus fellow. Why should they bend there ear to this stranger who walked with them? Yet they listened and later said,""Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"  Luke 24:32

Sometimes God will not speak to you directly but through the person who walks in the way with you, be that a little boy in the temple, your wife, or even a commentator.

On the other side of the scales you have balanced out things very well Matthew.  There is still an important place for a variety of secondary sources in our lives.  We  though always should examine them up in light of the scriptures to expose any mistruth they may contain. But if they pass that test - then we should take them into consideration our journey of understanding the scriptures and getting to know our Lord and Saviour, so that we might better bring Glory to our God.

 

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 6:17 PM

John Dyer, the editor of BestCommentaries.com, has posted his thoughts about it on his blog, Don't Eat the Fruit. It's an interesting blog I've been following for a while, "about the the role of technology in the redemptive movement from the Garden to the City. I believe technology is an amazing testament to the creativity embedded in the imago dei, but instead of assuming technology is always a neutral tool, I believe it - like culture in general - profoundly influences us."

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 8:42 PM

Rosie Perera:
John Dyer, the editor of BestCommentaries.com, has posted his thoughts about it on his blog, Don't Eat the Fruit.

Interesting but he seems to just be interested in seeing how it shakes out. One issue that was raised by a commenter was that this electronic version would seem to be limited to Logos-only format, as it seems it will be. No availability for other software and since there will be only abridged print editions, no way to own this commentary except in Logos. VERY proprietary. Also very risky. Instead of trying to use as many channels as possible to increase sales, you strip it down to one channel alone.

Print-only publishers did his for years and Kindle, et. al. have pushed that model out the window. The model being tried here is digital only (abridged print, whatever that will mean) and Logos only. Very restrictive. Wise? HMMM. Jury's out. I hope it works, but doubt it would be a model we'd like other publishers to follow. (BTW: I have no problem with digital-only, just Logos-only.)

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

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Posts 653
Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 8:46 PM

Todd Phillips:

Jonathan:

I am excited about this commentary set. I only wish that Logos would move away from the philosophy of only selling an entire set. It would be nice if we could order commentaries on an individual basis.

I love a number of the NICOT/NICNT commentaries, but will not buy them on Logos. Why do we have to buy a set of commentaries (ranging from $700-2000) to get the four-five commentaries that we are interested in? I would ask Logos to take a serious look at changing this part of their marketing philosophy. I think you would sell a lot more commentaries and probably pick up a number of new users.

I understand that Logos is at the hands of the publisher in some instances, but with EEC Logos is the publisher! I wonder if Logos is actually the  one who does not want to sell commentaries on an individual basis.

Jonathan expresses my thoughts too.

I find the requirement to buy the whole set very unfortunate.  First of all, I can't think of an instance where I would buy an entire commentary set without reviews and recommendations from others who have used it.  So there's no way I'm going to preorder a set that has yet to be written.  Therefore, I'm going to have to wait until this set is released to see if there are volumes I want, and if there are, I'll be forced to buy the abridged print edition (assuming individual volumes are available in print, which isn't a given either), since Logos won't sell the digital ones individually.  Isn't this a step backwards?  What's the motivation for not selling individual volumes?

OK - I guess I'm a bit confused here.  Are you suggesting that Logos should produce all the volumes and take a financial loss on those that don't sell, or should they just not produce them all so that those of us that might want all the volumes can do without just to satisfy the desires of those that want more for less?

Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 8:51 PM

Mark A. Smith:
Interesting but he seems to just be interested in seeing how it shakes out

I confess I was mostly using my comment as a way to draw attention to his very interesting blog, which I thought people with an interest in both faith and technology would enjoy reading. You're right that the content of that particular post, though pertinent to this thread, was not particularly enlightening. Nobody knows more than what Logos has revealed thus far. So, OK, I'll be more direct: go read his other blog posts. That was the point of my post... Smile

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 8:59 PM

Alex Scott:

Todd Phillips:

I find the requirement to buy the whole set very unfortunate.  First of all, I can't think of an instance where I would buy an entire commentary set without reviews and recommendations from others who have used it.  So there's no way I'm going to preorder a set that has yet to be written.  Therefore, I'm going to have to wait until this set is released to see if there are volumes I want, and if there are, I'll be forced to buy the abridged print edition (assuming individual volumes are available in print, which isn't a given either), since Logos won't sell the digital ones individually.  Isn't this a step backwards?  What's the motivation for not selling individual volumes?

OK - I guess I'm a bit confused here.  Are you suggesting that Logos should produce all the volumes and take a financial loss on those that don't sell, or should they just not produce them all so that those of us that might want all the volumes can do without just to satisfy the desires of those that want more for less?

Alex,

I really don't think I suggested either of those options, and who said anything about more for less?  I'd pay for individual volumes just like I can with many other commentaries in Logos.

I was just asking why individual volumes are never going to be sold (according to to the website). I can buy individual NICNT volumes in print--can't Logos do the same in digital?  Did something I say offend you?

EDIT: Perhaps I've misunderstood the website, but I took the statement "The EEC is only available as a set. The commentaries are not available for individual purchase." to be absolute, but perhaps it should only be understood as applying to the preorder time period, and they'll allow individual purchases after release? Maybe I need to be set straight on this point.  Thoughts?

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 9:09 PM

Rosie Perera:

Mark A. Smith:
Interesting but he seems to just be interested in seeing how it shakes out

I confess I was mostly using my comment as a way to draw attention to his very interesting blog, which I thought people with an interest in both faith and technology would enjoy reading. You're right that the content of that particular post, though pertinent to this thread, was not particularly enlightening. Nobody knows more than what Logos has revealed thus far. So, OK, I'll be more direct: go read his other blog posts. That was the point of my post... Smile

Thanks for bringing up this blog.  I have come across if before.  It focuses on things that I am passionate about so I've just added it to my google reader account.

 

Posts 19262
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 9 2010 9:29 PM

Andrew McKenzie:

Rosie Perera:

I confess I was mostly using my comment as a way to draw attention to his very interesting blog, which I thought people with an interest in both faith and technology would enjoy reading. You're right that the content of that particular post, though pertinent to this thread, was not particularly enlightening. Nobody knows more than what Logos has revealed thus far. So, OK, I'll be more direct: go read his other blog posts. That was the point of my post... Smile

Thanks for bringing up this blog.  I have come across if before.  It focuses on things that I am passionate about so I've just added it to my google reader account.

Glad to know you're passionate about these things. You might enjoy my blog, too, then. Faith & Technology: http://blog.faithandtechnology.org. Unfortunately, I've been so busy with Logos testing and MVP-ing for the past few months that I haven't been blogging as actively. But I hope to get back to it more regularly once I feel Logos is finally up to a level where I can just use it and not keep stumbling upon things I need to report to them.

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