I have questions: Evangelical Exegetical Commentary (44 vols) Pre-pub

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Posts 427
Wilson Hines | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Sep 7 2010 9:01 AM

If you haven't already seen the pre-pub announcement it is here: http://bit.ly/98RCaf

Some Facts about this, as stated on the Pre-pub or the commentary's own website: 

http://www.evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com

  • The contributors are:  http://www.evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/volumes/
  • The EEC is to be developed with similar scholarly parenthood and procedure as the WCC and Baker Exegetical Comm.
  • It is the first time a major commentary work has been undertaken with the intent to publish in digital format FIRST
  • However, it was "Originally intended to be a print edition, the series was canceled."
  • The timetable as described by Logos: "Logos will release the first volume in 2011, and the entire 44-volume set will be available in 2019..."
    • Going back to kindergarten and pulling on fingers while counting, that is eight (8) years.
  • The EEC is only available as a set. The commentaries are not available for individual purchase. When the first volume ships, your card will be charged for the whole collection
  • "New standard in evangelical research"

Thoughts and concerns based on the previous bullet points:

  • Faith: There is saving faith and then there is living faith.  It takes a whole bunch of living faith for me to ante up on a collection that doesn't even exist.  There are plenty of pre-pubs which I could point to and surmise that Logos' marketing department is wishful, as much as it is effective in the effort to produce some fantastic essential works.  I am sure that work has started, and that there could be two, three, or maybe even 10 of the volumes which are near release.  
  • I may sound crass here, but I bet a couple of these scholars won't even be alive by the time 2019 rolls around; which is OK, as long as the manuscript is submitted :).  
  • Back to the money: I am not saying the set isn't worth the money.  I am saying that WOW, that is a ton of money that you're asking me to fork over UP FRONT, and there's significant chance I may not even see the end goal.  
  • "New standard in evangelical research"  - Exactly what does this mean?   That is a broad brush comment, IMHO. Will these scholars take an approach, method, or use of technology that will make this commentary an evolutionary jump over the NIC or WCC? 
  • With such an enormous and aggressive work, don't you think it would be practical to break from the normal pre-pub arrangement and offer the payment plan to those whom are interested?
  • As a guy who is 2.5 yrs from starting my seminary career (at D.T.S), since I am spending so much money up front, what would pay off more:
  • From an personal, and even fleshly angle, the EEC has several contributors whom are either Dallas Theological alumni, faculty or previous faculty.  Since my total intention, based on life experiences and influence from mentors, is to attend D.T.S., that's a good thing and skews my decision making process on the prior point.  

 

 

Wilson Hines

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 7 2010 9:05 AM

Most of this has been discussed already in this thread:

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/22500.aspx

and this one:

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/22506.aspx

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 99
JJ Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 9:42 PM

Wilson, 

Congratulations on choosing a fine Seminary.  Of course, I attended DTS, so I can say that with complete impartiality.  :)  And the fact that my eldest daughter is attending there now, this doesn't cause me to lose objectivity.  <g>

To your questions: 

Faith.  Yes, of course you are right; you would be buying this EEC commentary set upfront for pre-published set...something that would take a long time to complete.  What you may not know is that the people/leadership behind Logos are incredible.  Once you get to know the team, such a purchase is not a matter of great faith after all.  See, I am just convinced that if something were to happen to this series along the way, Logos would make it right.  No, they couldn't help it if the whole commentary series failed to be produced, but I do know that they would put customer service first and work toward a win-win scenario for their customers.   That may, or may not, ease your feelings, but you will see that many fell this way about Logos. 

So, am I telling you to go ahead and pre-order it?  

That is your call. But I know that if it were me and I was going into Seminary today, I would want some COMPLETED commentaries on the whole Bible that were academic, strongly rated, and helpful with background information. There is a lot out there that you could chose from, but one obvious choice would be NICOT and NICNT. The New International Commentary is something that you will use through-out Seminary and beyond and would serve you well.  Word Biblical Commentary is also worth having, And check out the NIV Application Commentary set... many of the volumes in that set are outstanding (though the set is uneven).  If you don't have it because of your base package, NAB is also very good. 

What about the more critical volumes?  Yes, they are very good but you need to judge what your focus is for your studies and after.  For instance, ICC (international Critical Commentary) set is wonderful (for instance DTS will have you use Cranfield on Romans and the volumes on Matthew are outstanding) but there are a lot of volumes that, IMO, are out in left field (as you might suspect).  So, you must judge for yourself.  Anchor Yale Commentary is great.  Hermeneia is very good, especially OT stuff.  It is really a call you must make.  What are your resources, what can you afford??  But to answer your question, yes, I would recommend you get something completed now for your studies in Seminary.  

Be sure you get some of these titles for Seminary. A great Bible Dictionary /  Encyclopedia ... like the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary.  If you are doing languages, you will want to get BDAG and HALOT.  And for all that Greek and Hebrew work (as well as English language Bible Exposition work) I highly recommend the 
 Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament Bundle http://www.logos.com/products/details/3888  ) as well as Steve Runge's Discourse Grammar and/or video series.  The OT volume is in pre-pub right now.  

Enjoy your time at Seminary!  It will be a great time of growth and transformation for you.  

JJ

 

 

Posts 427
Wilson Hines | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 2 2010 7:54 AM

JJ Miller:

But I know that if it were me and I was going into Seminary today, I would want some COMPLETED commentaries on the whole Bible that were academic, strongly rated, and helpful with background information. There is a lot out there that you could chose from, but one obvious choice would be NICOT and NICNT. The New International Commentary is something that you will use through-out Seminary and beyond and would serve you well.  Word Biblical Commentary is also worth having, And check out the NIV Application Commentary set... many of the volumes in that set are outstanding (though the set is uneven).  If you don't have it because of your base package, NAB is also very good. 

What about the more critical volumes?  Yes, they are very good but you need to judge what your focus is for your studies and after.  For instance, ICC (international Critical Commentary) set is wonderful (for instance DTS will have you use Cranfield on Romans and the volumes on Matthew are outstanding) but there are a lot of volumes that, IMO, are out in left field (as you might suspect).  So, you must judge for yourself.  Anchor Yale Commentary is great.  Hermeneia is very good, especially OT stuff.  It is really a call you must make.  What are your resources, what can you afford??  But to answer your question, yes, I would recommend you get something completed now for your studies in Seminary.  

Be sure you get some of these titles for Seminary. A great Bible Dictionary /  Encyclopedia ... like the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary.  If you are doing languages, you will want to get BDAG and HALOT.  And for all that Greek and Hebrew work (as well as English language Bible Exposition work) I highly recommend the 
 Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament Bundle http://www.logos.com/products/details/3888  ) as well as Steve Runge's Discourse Grammar and/or video series.  The OT volume is in pre-pub right now.  

Enjoy your time at Seminary!  It will be a great time of growth and transformation for you.  

JJ

Hey JJ,

Thanks for the thorough response.  I wish I had the time this morning to respond to more of what you wrote, but today is a "brass tacks" type of day.  I have scheduled today with my Logos sales rep to do my purchase for the year, so this morning it was nice to see this response in my inbox.  I am going to pick up the EEC on pre-pub.  So that controversy aside, I have a couple other questions.  I am buying the Hermeneia and Continental today, as I think I will rarely see a value as such in an academic piece.  

Also, let me clarify here for a second, I don't know if I mentioned this before, but my entire goal is to be an biblical academic teacher at an evangelical college and or seminary.  Now, I know that is a long and drawn out process and goal, but I wanted you to be aware of what my desires were and were not.  I don't intend on "going into the ministry", in the form of being a pastor or as such at the local church level.  So, my library will shape up very differently than those who would be headed down the ministerial path.  

In regards to the essential tools like BDAG and HALOT, ect, I have had those for years, 10 or more.  Again, I've been collecting a fairly technical and extensive academic library; as the pre-pubs rolled, I partook.  My sales guy asked me last year, "Are you ever going to go to seminary to use this stuff?"  I replied, "I have no idea, but I hope too."  Well, I am on that track right now, thankfully.  All those years of pre-pubs are about to start paying me back.  

Today, what I know I am buying is the Hermeneia & Continental, the Sheffield Readers Collection and I am a couple volumes behind on my Theo Journals, so I'll catch up on that, too.  

Question:  What is the difference between the ICC from T&T Clark and the NIC?  Which one would I be better served by and why?  I guess, in all reality, I am done buying for another 12 months, but next year I am considering the Yale Commentary, simply based on how wonderful and useful the Yale ABD has been to me, already!

 

Thanks for your input, JJ! 

Wilson Hines

Posts 887
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 15 2010 9:45 AM

It looks like the definitive commentary on GJohn has just been published, the NICNT volume by J. Ramsey Michaels: http://newtestamentperspectives.blogspot.com/2010/10/j-ramsey-michaels-interview-part-i.html

I hope the author of this upcoming Logos commentary series' JOHN will be able to interact with it.

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 427
Wilson Hines | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 15 2010 10:04 AM

Eric Weiss:

It looks like the definitive commentary on GJohn has just been published, the NICNT volume by J. Ramsey Michaels: http://newtestamentperspectives.blogspot.com/2010/10/j-ramsey-michaels-interview-part-i.html

I hope the author of this upcoming Logos commentary series' JOHN will be able to interact with it.

That was an interesting read.  Enjoyed that very much.  thx.

Wilson Hines

Posts 99
JJ Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 15 2010 5:42 PM

Wilson Hines:

Hey JJ,

Thanks.  I have scheduled today with my Logos sales rep to do my purchase for the year....  I am going to pick up the EEC on pre-pub.  So that controversy aside, I have a couple other questions.  I am buying the Hermeneia and Continental today, as I think I will rarely see a value as such in an academic piece.  

Also, let me clarify here for a second, I don't know if I mentioned this before, but my entire goal is to be an biblical academic teacher at an evangelical college and or seminary.  I don't intend on "going into the ministry", in the form of being a pastor or as such at the local church level.  So, my library will shape up very differently than those who would be headed down the ministerial path.  

In regards to the essential tools like BDAG and HALOT, ect, I have had those for years, 10 or more.  Again, I've been collecting a fairly technical and extensive academic library; as the pre-pubs rolled, I partook.  My sales guy asked me last year, "Are you ever going to go to seminary to use this stuff?"  

Today, what I know I am buying is the Hermeneia & Continental, the Sheffield Readers Collection and I am a couple volumes behind on my Theo Journals, so I'll catch up on that, too.  

Question:  What is the difference between the ICC from T&T Clark and the NIC?  Which one would I be better served by and why?  I guess, in all reality, I am done buying for another 12 months, but next year I am considering the Yale Commentary, simply based on how wonderful and useful the Yale ABD has been to me, already!

Thanks for your input, JJ! 

Wilson, 

Sorry for the lengthy delay in responses. 

First and foremost, you are going to make a lot of Seminarians jealous!  :)   Seriously, you are building a library that is going to be more than beneficial for your Seminary career. Of course, you needn't worry about acquiring everything now, as you will have many years in school (and the time for your ThD or PhD, as well).   

Boy, I would open this up to a whole army of folks on Logos who are actively teaching or going into a teaching ministry.  I have taught at the Higher Ed level, but at a secular college and University.  So, there are others who would provide wiser council than I could give. 

My gut level thought is that ... if finances permit... I would rather see you go to Seminary sooner rather than later. Don't try to build up an outstanding library if it means pushing the date back 2 or 3 or more years away.  Why?

The tools you are building are are going to be determined by a lot of personal choice.  As you study in certain areas, you are going to find a subject/area that you are going to want to specialize in. That area will have its own needs and professors are going to direct you to certain authors and volumes.  In your early Seminary days, you are going to want to learn your languages and exegetical skills and to learn how to learn those tools.  More important than the commentaries, you are going to need to use all the tools and resources of your specialty.  The sooner you get started, the sooner you will have the information you will need to make wise choices.   

You are right, your library will look a lot different than a pastoral candidate.  But still, remember you will be training pastoral candidates, so you will need to be able to communicate the importance and usefulness of those tools as well. Still, in hopes of providing some guidance... at least in relation to your question... here are some thoughts: 

The difference between ICC and NICOT/NICNT is like night and day.  They have different purposes, as well.  Do you know what area that you want to teach?  Languages?  NT? OT?  Homiletics? Bible Exposition?  Theology?  Practical Theology?  Missions?  Etc.  Knowing this could help with answers that others might give you.  In general, I can't imagine a time that I would recommend ICC over the NICOT/NT series.  However, if you are looking to teach in the NT department or languages, ICC does have some outstanding volumes. ICC is much more technical than NIC is.  However, the consistency of that series is its weak point. So, while some volumes are outstanding, others are, well, less so.  It is a much older series too (overall) and so, the descrepancy between the best and the worst in the series is large. Still, if language study is your goal for ministry, ICC series is to be considered.  Personally, I have the ICC volumes that I want in print (sorry Logos, but they aren't available individually)  and I have the NICOT/NT series for Logos (selling my print edition to acquire it) as I would MUCH rather have a set in Logos than in print (since I can't afford to have it in both print and in Logos)...at least not without having to worry about paying for a divorce lawyer too! :) 

Since you have Hermeneia and looking at Anchor-Yale (I also bought those... wonderful for having access to ... especially Old Testament), I am guessing you are striving for an exegetical type of focus.  So, WBC might be a good addition as well. I also assume (if you are buying some of these commentary sets) that you are already at Platinum or Portfolio level of Logos.  However, don't compare Anchor-Yale Bible Dictionary with the series of Commentaries.  

Lastly, I would recommend that you get familiar with the tools you already have before you go to Seminary.  Maybe you are using those tools already... maybe you are doing some language study on your own?  If not, the new Logos Video tool: 

Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software

 could help you to get comfortable with many of the tools that you will be using, as well as get you acclimated to the structure of the languages.  

I hope that you have a wonderful time at Seminary.  And gather some insights from some of the very gifted people on this site... your journey is going to be fun!

God richly blesses,

JJ 

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 16 2010 12:53 PM

Eric Weiss:

It looks like the definitive commentary on GJohn has just been published, the NICNT volume by J. Ramsey Michaels: http://newtestamentperspectives.blogspot.com/2010/10/j-ramsey-michaels-interview-part-i.html

I hope the author of this upcoming Logos commentary series' JOHN will be able to interact with it.

Peace to you, Eric!  *smile*  Thanks for the post.

I have J. Ramsey Michaels in John in NIBC.  It will be interesting to compare when I hopefully will obtain the NICNT volumne.

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 2898
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 17 2010 8:07 PM

JJMiller's advice is excellent, so I will just say "God bless you"!  I wish you the best at DTS.  God has great things ahead for you.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 2898
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 17 2010 8:10 PM

Great advice JJ, but I believe the ICC volumes are available individually in Logos. 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 99
JJ Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 18 2010 12:00 PM

You are right Michael... the ICC series is now available for individual volumes.  :)  

JJ

Posts 427
Wilson Hines | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 18 2010 12:51 PM

JJ Miller:

Wilson Hines:

 

Wilson, 

Sorry for the lengthy delay in responses. 

My gut level thought is that ... if finances permit... I would rather see you go to Seminary sooner rather than later. Don't try to build up an outstanding library if it means pushing the date back 2 or 3 or more years away.  Why?

 

he had a lot here :)  

 

I hope that you have a wonderful time at Seminary.  And gather some insights from some of the very gifted people on this site... your journey is going to be fun!

God richly blesses,

JJ 

 

Hi JJ and folks,

Man O’ man!  I really appreciate the detail in the response.  I know it took some time!  Thanks!  

I will try to answer by taking your answer and doing the “quote thingy” on the individual question and then quote thingy again :)

Q:  “My gut level thought is that ... if finances permit... I would rather see you go to Seminary sooner rather than later. Don't try to build up an outstanding library if it means pushing the date back 2 or 3 or more years away.  Why?”

A:  Oh, I didn’t mean to give that impression.  I actually attended an unaccredited Bible college right out of high school in the early to mid 90’s.  So, I’ve spent 15 years trying “to get back” to college.  I've gotten back in just as fast as I could, regardless of resources.

This year, I finally took what amounts to an “early retirement” of sorts.  The wife and I both are in college full time.  She is in the R.N. program, top of her  class, ect., and is graduating this Spring; she will continue to the B.S.N program where she will be fully out in the Spring of 2012, but working starting in Spring 2011.  This is the first year I’ve been able to get enrolled at all and we decided for me to dive right in head long and go full time after a part time Spring and Summer.  I have a 3.7 G.P.A and that will rise to a 3.8, if I have my math right, at the end of this semester and I will be a sophomore.  

Statement: The tools you are building are are going to be determined by a lot of personal choice.  As you study in certain areas, you are going to find a subject/area that you are going to want to specialize in. That area will have its own needs and professors are going to direct you to certain authors and volumes.  In your early Seminary days, you are going to want to learn your languages and exegetical skills and to learn how to learn those tools.  More important than the commentaries, you are going to need to use all the tools and resources of your specialty.  The sooner you get started, the sooner you will have the information you will need to make wise choices.  

A:  The three years I was in Bible College, I got the taste for Greek.  I had two formal years of training and a third year on my own with helps and more intermediate grammars.  I go through spells of keeping up with it, but I can be fairly confident in saying I can tote my Nestle-Aland to church.  I had it rebound and it looks as nice as any Bible around me.  

That being said, I’ve had one professor from DTS and another friend of mine with a ThM tell me flat out that as a student you become very succeptible to finding out some tid bit of information and you become latched on finding more on that topic.  The next thing you know, you specialize in that topic.  I know full well I may get involved at DTS and find out that I would rather be an O.T specialist, for example.  By the way, lately I’ve got addicted to some historical criticism topic dealing with Genesis.  I could easily see myself go nuts right there.  :)

Statement: Personally, I have the ICC volumes that I want in print (sorry Logos, but they aren't available individually)  and I have the NICOT/NT series for Logos (selling my print edition to acquire it) as I would MUCH rather have a set in Logos than in print (since I can't afford to have it in both print and in Logos)...at least not without having to worry about paying for a divorce lawyer too! :) 

A:  Your strategy on the ICC vs. the NICOT/NT might be just the strategy: having the ICC in print on a “as needed basis” and the NICOT/NT in L4.  On the other hand, I intend on buying most, if not all, of what is in the “New Testament Studies Bundle (64 Vols.)” , so therefore maybe just buying the bundle, itself, is the best deal.

Statement: Since you have Hermeneia and looking at Anchor-Yale (I also bought those... wonderful for having access to ... especially Old Testament), I am guessing you are striving for an exegetical type of focus.  So, WBC might be a good addition as well. I also assume (if you are buying some of these commentary sets) that you are already at Platinum or Portfolio level of Logos.  

A:  Yes I now have the Hermeneia and Continental 64 volume package.  I was looking at the Anchor-Yale and I sort of still am looking at it, but I found a hitch.  I am not going into any details, but my sales rep told me NOT to fool with Anchor-Yale right now; basically not to make it such a priority.  There were reasons within the text, which I won’t go into right now.  Sometimes I take his advice and sometimes I don’t, so understand I am listening to everything that comes my way.  His advice was to go right after the NICOT/NT, Hermeneia, and ICC before I fooled with the Anchor-Yale.  His reasoning, in all reality, makes plenty of sense after listening to your reasoning (I think).  

On the front of the WBC: Currently I own an expansion pack of 1, 19, 36, 38a, and 45.  I  have had this since the 90’s, I think.  I don’t even remember buying it, it must have gotten thrown in with some sort of deal.  Anyway, I bought hard copies of 36, 49, and 52 several years ago and have enjoyed flipping through those at times.  The WBC is on my list, but I see NICOT/NT and the ICC before the WBC.  Maybe even the Anchor-Yale before the WBC.  Just my thinking.  

In conclusion, at my core, I am a dreamer.  I just kept buying pre-pubs and books every year thinking “one of these days I’ll get back to Bible college.  I never figured I would go to Seminary.  I am not there yet, either.  But, I am well on my way.  I used to day dream about having an academic style library when I was in college.  It looks like the LORD is providing that for me for some reason.  I surely don’t deserve it.  I have been a sick little boy for the past 15 years.  My heart has been out of place much more than it’s been in the right place.  I have no idea why God has chosen to put me in this situation, in regards to my library.  I remember guys in Bible college that had nothing but the text books they bought while in college.  Mercy, I remember one guy who showed up with one suit and a Franklin digital pocket Bible, and that literally was IT.  

The other day, I was working with someone who is an “MVP” on this forum.  I was trying to accomplish the same thing in our conversations as I am trying to accomplish here in this forum thread; that is simple: making sure I am the best equipped for seminary that I can possibly be imagined.  We were doing some search analysis and the MVP made the mention that I may have had “resource envy” regarding this person library.  I would like to stop that mind set right now.  I have not started this thread or any conversation with anyone so I could lust at what they have or their financial capabilities.  Of course one can get impressed with what one has, but I have over 2,800 books and it has literally taken since 1994 to get all of this.  It surely didn’t happen over night and there was no book budget.  I have been frowned at multiple times for taking money and giving it to Bob and the guys when it really should have gone in other directions.  I just knew the impending threat of eventually coming to the point whereas I was ready to go to Seminary and not having a whole lot, library wise, to accomplish the mission.  

That said, I appreciate anyone who is willing to help me.  But, never get the idea I am lusting after ones resources.  I am wise enough to see that God chose you to have those resources for one reason or another.  If you’re not using them, shame on you and me (because I’ve had my season of non-use).  

J.J, et al., thanks so much for your time and patience.  

If you choose to respond again, I will so appreciate it.  I just figured I need to get that little rant off my chest.  :)

 

Wilson Hines

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