Greek or Hebrew Word Study Question

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Jeremy | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Sep 8 2010 5:12 PM

If I am doing a word study using a Greek or Hebrew word, at this point does Logos not allow me to search for any form other than the dictionary form? The problem is that when I am looking at grammatical relationships, I would like to narrow my choices down to a particular type of a word, not just the lemma. I thought L3 could do this, but L4 - due to indexing and the limitations indexing brings - won't allow this. 

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 7:04 PM

Hi,

The context menu gives a variety of options beyond searching for the Lemma.  the image below shows the various searches.  Is this what you are looking for?

 

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Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 7:12 PM

You can do a morph search for any word, but you can't do a word study on any form of a noun or verb right?

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 7:53 PM

No, you're not limited that way in L4 at all. Are you doing a Bible Word Study (BWS)? If so, there are a couple of different ways you can do what you're trying to do. You said "I would like to narrow my choices down to a particular type of a word" (Do you mean you want to look for all instances of a particular morphological form of the word? Or do you want to look for all forms of this word that are based on the same lemma?)

If the latter (you want to look for all forms based on this lemma):

One way to do it is from the BWS Translation ring, click on the Greek or Hebrew word in the middle of the ring:

This will result in showing all the places where this lemma occurs (in any morphological form) throughout your translation of choice. You can change which version is used on the Settings menu which shows up if you hover over the blue bar with the version abbreviation in it. And you can change this default permanently by creating a custom BWS guide with your preferred version selected in the Translation section of the guide template.

Another way to do this is if you're looking at any particular instance of this lemma (or an inflected form of it) in the Greek or Hebrew Bible (or in a translation that is reverse interlinear capable), you can right-click on that word, select the Lemma tab on the right side of the pop-up menu, then click "Search this resource" on the left side. It won't find just the lemma forms, but all forms based on that lemma.

Now if you just want to find a particular form of the word, then you can use Morphological Search.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 7:57 PM

Jeremy:

You can do a morph search for any word, but you can't do a word study on any form of a noun or verb right?

Not sure I understand. How would a word study on a particular form of a word be different from the word study on the lemma that word is based on?

You can right-click on any form of a noun or verb, select the Lemma tab, and choose Bible Word Study on the left side of the menu. This will give you access to all the BWS info related to that word, regardless of what form it appears in in the place you originally found it. Is this what you're looking for, or am I missing something?

Note: It apears both Joe and I are answering your question, so we might be crossing paths here.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 8:03 PM

Jeremy:

You can do a morph search for any word, but you can't do a word study on any form of a noun or verb right?

Bible Word Study has Grammatical Relationships section with couple options:

Keep Smiling Smile

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Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 8:23 PM

Rosie Perera:
Do you mean you want to look for all instances of a particular morphological form of the word?

Yes and I'm pretty sure you can't do this. The things you have said are great to be able to do related to the latter of the two possibilities you gave, but I just want to be able to narrow the results down from the beginning. For instance, instead of beginning with the lemma form of doulos, I want to begin with the genitive form. But Logos only allows you to start from the nominative. 

Keep smiling, I realize that you can do this through the Logos morph and syntax searches, but you can't see the grammatical relationships of just the genitive form, but all the forms as far as I can tell. 

Right?

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 8:29 PM

Jeremy:

Rosie Perera:
Do you mean you want to look for all instances of a particular morphological form of the word?

Yes and I'm pretty sure you can't do this. The things you have said are great to be able to do related to the latter of the two possibilities you gave, but I just want to be able to narrow the results down from the beginning. For instance, instead of beginning with the lemma form of doulos, I want to begin with the genitive form. But Logos only allows you to start from the nominative. 

Keep smiling, I realize that you can do this through the Logos morph and syntax searches, but you can't see the grammatical relationships of just the genitive form, but all the forms as far as I can tell. 

Right?

Is it possible to answer Jeremy's question using a syntax search ?

 

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 9:07 PM

Jeremy:
For instance, instead of beginning with the lemma form of doulos, I want to begin with the genitive form. But Logos only allows you to start from the nominative. 
I am trying to understand your specific need, so please pardon me if this is missing the mark.  

Why not just do a search for all the Genitive forms like this?

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Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 9:11 PM

You could do that, but I like the format of the word study/grammatical analysis better than the syntax search/analysis view. Plus, in the syntax/analysis view you can't see subject of, object of, adjunct with, preposition with, used adjectively, and modified by adjective. For verbs you can't narrow down a particular type of verb (you see all forms of the verb in the grammatical analysis) and see things like addressee and adverb all grouped together. I thought L3 could do all of this because there was no indexing and you couple type in any form of a noun or verb into the word study. Since L4 only indexes by lemma, it is a little limited. 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 9:24 PM

Used morph searches, then hunt and peck in BWS grammatical relationships:

Also did a Bible Text search, hence surprised by BWS Textual Search section showing 0 results in New Testament.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 9:24 PM

Jeremy:

Rosie Perera:
Do you mean you want to look for all instances of a particular morphological form of the word?

Yes and I'm pretty sure you can't do this. The things you have said are great to be able to do related to the latter of the two possibilities you gave, but I just want to be able to narrow the results down from the beginning. For instance, instead of beginning with the lemma form of doulos, I want to begin with the genitive form. But Logos only allows you to start from the nominative. 

Sure you can. Either search for that form exactly in a Bible Search, and view the results in Analysis view (you'll have to search for both singular and plural form to make sure you get all occurrences, and I'm using the comma/list operator here instead of OR but either one would work the same way):

Or, even easier, do a Morph Search for the lemma in the genitive, and again view results in Analysis view:

That's how you can find all uses of a particular form of the word and do some analysis of how they are connected to adjacent material. Of course it isn't quite as powerful as what the Bible Word Study guide can do with grammatical relationships, and you're right, you cannot limit the BWS results to just a particular form of the word. Is that what you were hoping to be able to do? If so, it might be worth sending in a request for that functionality to suggest (at) logos (dot) com.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 9:29 PM

OK, sorry, our answers crossed in the mail. I see you want to be able to do BWS but restrict the grammatical relationships section to just one particular form of the word. Can't do that.

But in 4.1 you can export a BWS report to Word, where you could then do a Search for the particular form you were interested in.

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Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 9:30 PM

Keep smiling, of course you can see what you are looking at, but you have to discover if this is nominative or genitive. Yes you pretty much know by looking at it and hovering over a particular word, but if you only want to see the grammatical relationships of a genitive you can't do it from the word study. 

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Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 9:32 PM

By the way, I haven't messed around with the syntax search lately but after I have hit @ and clicked my selections, Logos isn't populating. Do I hit enter? It seems Logos gets stuck on the Mac side. 

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 9:38 PM

Jeremy:

By the way, I haven't messed around with the syntax search lately but after I have hit @ and clicked my selections, Logos isn't populating. Do I hit enter? It seems Logos gets stuck on the Mac side. 

You mean the Morph search, surely, as there's no @ in Syntax search.

Not sure about the Mac side, but it should work the same as Win. Click the blue arrow. Not the one at the lower right corner of the morphology menu (that just dismisses the menu) but the one at the right of the Find box, which you can click directly even while the menu is still dropped down. Enter should do the same thing as clicking that latter blue arrow.

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Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 10:13 PM

Yes a morph search my bad.

If there is no such morph search result possible for what I have clicked on with the @ button, will Logos not allow it to try to populate?

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 10:17 PM

Jeremy:

Keep smiling, of course you can see what you are looking at, but you have to discover if this is nominative or genitive. Yes you pretty much know by looking at it and hovering over a particular word, but if you only want to see the grammatical relationships of a genitive you can't do it from the word study. 

For my hunt and peck, looked for verse reference match - was curious where genitive form appeared in BWS grammatical relationships - concur BWS does not offer form filtering.  Morph search with verses and analysis display looks intriguing:

Searching All Resources finds genitive form in more than New Testament.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 8 2010 10:23 PM

Jeremy:

If there is no such morph search result possible for what I have clicked on with the @ button, will Logos not allow it to try to populate?

It will try to populate, but will fail if there are no results. Are you experiencing something other than that? Does it not even look like it's "thinking" for a moment?

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