Searching takes me back to Logos 3

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Jim | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Sep 28 2010 10:26 AM

I've been using Logos 4 for 10 months. I use it regularly. I show others how to use it. But I miss Logos 3.

I just started a study on Philippians and wanted to research articles on the letter. First of all I still can't find any equivalent in L4 to the Topic Browser in L3 that identifies resource topics rather than every where the word is used. Though the Topic Browser was of limited use, it is nice to use once in a while especially when faced with what L4 presents.

More importantly, if I do a search in my whole library for "Philippians", L3 gives me a really nicely arranged compact listing of resources that I can visually scan very quickly and can quickly expand any one to see the articles or places the word was used. That is so convenient.

In L4, someone thinks that beautiful book icons are worth the screen space. I find them an annoyance. Furthermore when I click on one, the window blanks and takes many seconds to open up to an expanded view (whereas in L3 it is almost instantaneous) that still doesn't use screen space very well. I find it so cumbersome, I just open L3 and search there.

So it doesn't impress me that it came up with 8000 hits in 12 seconds instead of taking 30 seconds to come up with a list that I can use much more efficiently.

Oh, and I must say it's getting really tiresome that when I click on a new resource it buries it in a tab in one of my panes and I have to go search for it (if you think it places it in a pane of like resources then you haven't used the program much - it will place Bibles with commentaries, commentaries with Language helps etc.). I liked that L3 popped open a new window on top of everything else - it's right there. That would be nice in L4, then if you want to place the resource on the main window you could drag the tab there. I think there should be an option to open all new resources selected from the library, favorites, or a search window into a common window that is separate from the main window.

I don't mean this to be negative. It's just that the novelty has worn off and I want the tool to be at least as efficient as Logos used to be for me.

Perhaps, ( I hope) some new feature has been added lately that I'm missing?? I'm open to suggestions.

Have a great day,
jmac

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 11:18 AM

Jim:
First of all I still can't find any equivalent in L4 to the Topic Browser in L3 that identifies resource topics rather than every where the word is used.

This is badly needed. So far much discussed but nothing seems forthcoming from Logos.

Jim:
L3 gives me a really nicely arranged compact listing of resources that I can visually scan very quickly and can quickly expand any one to see the articles or places the word was used. That is so convenient.

It sure is. I agree with you in preferring that arrangement.

Jim:
In L4, someone thinks that beautiful book icons are worth the screen space. I find them an annoyance. Furthermore when I click on one, the window blanks and takes many seconds to open up to an expanded view (whereas in L3 it is almost instantaneous) that still doesn't use screen space very well.

Yes L4 is slower and I don't need book pictures, either. In addition when you click on a book to see the hits the pane doesn't refocus to the top of the list you just opened. You have to scroll down to find it. Very aggravating and not a good design.

Jim:
So it doesn't impress me that it came up with 8000 hits in 12 seconds instead of taking 30 seconds to come up with a list that I can use much more efficiently.

I believe this is a good point.

Jim:
It's just that the novelty has worn off and I want the tool to be at least as efficient as Logos used to be for me.

Yes and while searching has improved in some ways since the original testing of the Logos 4.0 beta, it still needs work. You've pointed out a number of the deficiencies.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 11:30 AM

I understand the issues, and agree with them to some extent. Let me show you how I try my best to get around them.

Jim:
I just started a study on Philippians and wanted to research articles on the letter. First of all I still can't find any equivalent in L4 to the Topic Browser in L3 that identifies resource topics rather than every where the word is used. Though the Topic Browser was of limited use, it is nice to use once in a while especially when faced with what L4 presents.

In a basic search, you can click the drop-down marked All Text and choose fields. I'd choose Heading, Title, and Topic. It won't return the same results as L3, but it's better than nothing. I'd also type lookup Philippians in the command bar to get the main dictionary article and use parallel resource menu to find more.

Jim:
In L4, someone thinks that beautiful book icons are worth the screen space. I find them an annoyance. Furthermore when I click on one, the window blanks and takes many seconds to open up to an expanded view (whereas in L3 it is almost instantaneous) that still doesn't use screen space very well.

A ranked view doesn't show the icons, and shows more relevant ones at the top. If you restrict your search to a smallish collection of resources most likely to be helpful (dictionaries and journals for example) it might be better than the "by book" view.

Jim:
Oh, and I must say it's getting really tiresome that when I click on a new resource it buries it in a tab in one of my panes and I have to go search for it (if you think it places it in a pane of like resources then you haven't used the program much

Yes, someone mentioned this the other day. It's a pain. I never click to open. Instead I drag to open, and put the new resource exactly where I want it. You can drag to create a new panel, or drop it in the tab bar of an existing panel.

 

I know these won't go all the way to easing your frustrations, but for me the big pluses of L4, mitigated by these workarounds, still make L4 head and shoulders better than L3.

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Matt | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 11:32 AM

Just so you don't feel alone Jim, I echo some of your sentiments.  It seems that for some people, many esoteric features are what drives their admiration of the product, but for just simple, day-to-day stuff (such as windows opening, typing into dialog boxes, etc.) the lag time due to what I would term poor resource contention locking management, makes it so that for very simple tasks, opening the browser to Google is much quicker.  Let me give you a quick example.  Today, I wanted to find the Scripture that refers to all Scripture being profitable (meaning that all of what is contained in the Bible is edifying to us).  Time to open my web browser, type 'all scripture is for profit' and click on the top link to open the page http://bible.cc/2_timothy/3-16.htm and see the precise reference I was looking for in 18 different translations along with various commentaries was less than 11 seconds.  Let me try to do the same thing in Logos 4:

time to open logos - 30 seconds

time to open a search panel, type in my search, and have the hit matches display - 15 seconds

time to find a relevant hit in what was displayed - too long

Even if I subtract out the time to open Logos 4, it still is much slower, and more importantly, offers much less intuitive functionality than a web browser!  The results I got back in Logos 4 were not in any way related to what I was looking for.  I'm sure there are more efficient ways to do this in Logos 4, but a large barrier for me is that the help system in Logos 4 is, just like the performance of simple tasks, a long way off from what it was in Libronix 3.  The help system in Libronix 3 was wonderful.  Almost every feature explained in detail and with examples.  In Logos 4, it's almost like it's an open source project, where the help 'system' has been left to the end users to flesh out (and the people in this forum have done a fantastic job of filling in the gaping holes left in Logos 4's incarnations thus far).  If anybody doubts the veracity of what I say, fire up Libronix 3 and go through the help system, and then look at Logos 4.  I can only quote what Hamlet's father says to Hamlet here:  What a falling off was there!  It would be encouraging if Logos would finally step up to the plate, acknowledge there are definite performance problems with their software and help system, and actually put it on the map of 'features coming soon.'

Matt

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    Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 11:54 AM

    Jim:

    I've been using Logos 4 for 10 months. I use it regularly. I show others how to use it. But I miss Logos 3.

    I just started a study on Philippians and wanted to research articles on the letter. First of all I still can't find any equivalent in L4 to the Topic Browser in L3 that identifies resource topics rather than every where the word is used. Though the Topic Browser was of limited use, it is nice to use once in a while especially when faced with what L4 presents.

    More importantly, if I do a search in my whole library for "Philippians", L3 gives me a really nicely arranged compact listing of resources that I can visually scan very quickly and can quickly expand any one to see the articles or places the word was used. That is so convenient.

    In L4, someone thinks that beautiful book icons are worth the screen space. I find them an annoyance. Furthermore when I click on one, the window blanks and takes many seconds to open up to an expanded view (whereas in L3 it is almost instantaneous) that still doesn't use screen space very well. I find it so cumbersome, I just open L3 and search there.

    So it doesn't impress me that it came up with 8000 hits in 12 seconds instead of taking 30 seconds to come up with a list that I can use much more efficiently.

    Oh, and I must say it's getting really tiresome that when I click on a new resource it buries it in a tab in one of my panes and I have to go search for it (if you think it places it in a pane of like resources then you haven't used the program much - it will place Bibles with commentaries, commentaries with Language helps etc.). I liked that L3 popped open a new window on top of everything else - it's right there. That would be nice in L4, then if you want to place the resource on the main window you could drag the tab there. I think there should be an option to open all new resources selected from the library, favorites, or a search window into a common window that is separate from the main window.

    I don't mean this to be negative. It's just that the novelty has worn off and I want the tool to be at least as efficient as Logos used to be for me.

    Perhaps, ( I hope) some new feature has been added lately that I'm missing?? I'm open to suggestions.

    I agree whole heartedly with you. I usually turn to V3 for searches!

    As for Mark Barnes comment. Well, if you help design V4Stick out tongue and know most things about computersWink and Logos 4, then fine. For some of us we just want a product that works efficiently, not endless read up and ways of doing something so simple in V3. In this respect V4 is in my view seriously lacking!

    Ted

     

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    Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 12:07 PM

    Matt:
    Today, I wanted to find the Scripture that refers to all Scripture being profitable (meaning that all of what is contained in the Bible is edifying to us). 

    You're right in that Logos isn't really suited to a simple task like this. It's a bit like saying that your using your RV that's parked in your garage to visit your next door neighbour is much, much slower than just walking. That said, a Bible search (rather than a Basic search) would have found the result right away.

    You're right about the help system. I haven't opened it for about 9 months, as it's easier to read the Wiki, work it out for yourself, or look here.

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    Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 12:11 PM

    Ted Hans:
    As for Mark Barnes comment. Well, if you help design V4Stick out tongue and know most things about computersWink and Logos 4, then fine. For some of us we just want a product that works efficiently, not endless read up and ways of doing something so simple in V3. In this respect V4 is in my view seriously lacking!

    Sadly, I missed out on beta testing L4 Sad. But I think the #1 reason why I'm happy with L4 is not because I'm good with computers, but that I actually quite disliked L3, so I never got used to it. Sure, I used to use L3 a lot, but only really for reading books and the occasional search. Everything else seemed slow and cumbersome. So when L4 came along I never thought "this was better in L3" because I particularly really know how to do things in L3. I just learned L4 from scratch. Having no 'baggage', probably helped a lot.

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    tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 12:39 PM

    Jim:

    I've been using Logos 4 for 10 months. I use it regularly. I show others how to use it. But I miss Logos 3.

    I just started a study on Philippians and wanted to research articles on the letter. First of all I still can't find any equivalent in L4 to the Topic Browser in L3 that identifies resource topics rather than every where the word is used. Though the Topic Browser was of limited use, it is nice to use once in a while especially when faced with what L4 presents.

    More importantly, if I do a search in my whole library for "Philippians", L3 gives me a really nicely arranged compact listing of resources that I can visually scan very quickly and can quickly expand any one to see the articles or places the word was used. That is so convenient.

    In L4, someone thinks that beautiful book icons are worth the screen space. I find them an annoyance. Furthermore when I click on one, the window blanks and takes many seconds to open up to an expanded view (whereas in L3 it is almost instantaneous) that still doesn't use screen space very well. I find it so cumbersome, I just open L3 and search there.

    So it doesn't impress me that it came up with 8000 hits in 12 seconds instead of taking 30 seconds to come up with a list that I can use much more efficiently.

    Oh, and I must say it's getting really tiresome that when I click on a new resource it buries it in a tab in one of my panes and I have to go search for it (if you think it places it in a pane of like resources then you haven't used the program much - it will place Bibles with commentaries, commentaries with Language helps etc.). I liked that L3 popped open a new window on top of everything else - it's right there. That would be nice in L4, then if you want to place the resource on the main window you could drag the tab there. I think there should be an option to open all new resources selected from the library, favorites, or a search window into a common window that is separate from the main window.

    I don't mean this to be negative. It's just that the novelty has worn off and I want the tool to be at least as efficient as Logos used to be for me.

    Perhaps, ( I hope) some new feature has been added lately that I'm missing?? I'm open to suggestions.

    Jim, I too agree with you 100%.  I still use L3 for just about everything.

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    Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 12:50 PM

    Mark Barnes:
    Everything else seemed slow and cumbersome.

    Oh yes, L3 was very slow, no one doubts that or suggesting we want slowness. That said, unless you are in the know how L4 can be a pain in terms of searching. Very few know L4 as much as you do and we are grateful for your many videosYes. I am sure you have many work around for many of the difficulty someone like myself will face with L4.

    I am British I can't keep running around asking how do one do this or that. Then read Wiki - I am a father, husband, have church commitments and have work to attend, to fund more Logos resourcesSmile. So I want a simple search function like V3Wink.

    I do agree with you on the whole L4 is way ahead on many things than L3.

    Mark Barnes:
    Sadly, I missed out on beta testing L4 Sad.

    I know what you mean but I find your many post in the beta forumWink.

    Ted

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    David Sawyer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 12:59 PM

    A bit like Mark, I never got on with L3 that much, but do with L4 and love it.

    However the search area is the main thing that doesn't seem to work well - for all the reasons given above.

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    tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 1:00 PM

    Mark Barnes:

    Matt:
    Today, I wanted to find the Scripture that refers to all Scripture being profitable (meaning that all of what is contained in the Bible is edifying to us). 

    You're right in that Logos isn't really suited to a simple task like this. It's a bit like saying that your using your RV that's parked in your garage to visit your next door neighbour is much, much slower than just walking. That said, a Bible search (rather than a Basic search) would have found the result right away.

    You're right about the help system. I haven't opened it for about 9 months, as it's easier to read the Wiki, work it out for yourself, or look here.

     

    Mark,

    When I do a general search, I no longer do it in Logos.  If I am doing something with the Greek or Hebrew text, I use Bible Works.  When I am doing anything else, I use the web.  L4 is quick on the searching, but way toooooooo slow for everything else.

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    Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 1:13 PM

    tom collinge:
    When I do a general search, I no longer do it in Logos.  If I am doing something with the Greek or Hebrew text, I use Bible Works.  When I am doing anything else, I use the web.  L4 is quick on the searching, but way toooooooo slow for everything else.

    I guess there's so many variables here, which is partly why different users prefer different applications. For me the speed at which I can use Logos makes up for the slowness of some of the operations (usually, anyway). So as a trivial example, in L3 everytime I wanted to adjust my layout (which I do frequently, I rarely use a 'fixed' workspace), it would be real hassle trying to get the different windows lined up properly. In L4 panel/tab management is streets ahead (to my way of thinking). I might only be saving a few seconds each time, but often in my studies I'm opening/closing tabs every 2-3 minutes for potentially a whole day. So although I do sometimes find L4 slower, I also find it makes me faster, if that makes sense.

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    Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 9:23 PM

    Jim, I do sympathise

    Jim:
    First of all I still can't find any equivalent in L4 to the Topic Browser in L3 that identifies resource topics rather than every where the word is used. Though the Topic Browser was of limited use, it is nice to use once in a while especially when faced with what L4 presents.

    I find L4's approach to be arcane (even esoteric and mystic) or plain unintuitive!  When its current capabilities match my need the results can be satisfying (accurate), but I prefer the unique Topic Browser approach of L3 (or the topic(<name>) Basic search) even if the results could be all over the place (inaccurate!).

    Jim:
    More importantly, if I do a search in my whole library for "Philippians", L3 gives me a really nicely arranged compact listing of resources that I can visually scan very quickly and can quickly expand any one to see the articles or places the word was used. That is so convenient.

    L4's implementation of this needs improving.

    Jim:
    Oh, and I must say it's getting really tiresome that when I click on a new resource it buries it in a tab in one of my panes and I have to go search for it (if you think it places it in a pane of like resources then you haven't used the program much - it will place Bibles with commentaries, commentaries with Language helps etc.).

    I find this 50-50!

    Jim:
    I don't mean this to be negative. It's just that the novelty has worn off and I want the tool to be at least as efficient as Logos used to be for me.

    I have to think that it took Libronix at least 4 years to mature into an L3 after starting on a new platform (Internet Explorer). Allow L4 another 12 months.

    Dave
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    Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 9:36 PM

    Matt:

    Let me try to do the same thing in Logos 4:

    time to open logos - 30 seconds

    time to open a search panel, type in my search, and have the hit matches display - 15 seconds

    time to find a relevant hit in what was displayed - too long

    In fairness that description would also apply to L3. However, the query in both would benefit greatly from a Bible Search on scripture is profit (using Match all word forms) => no quotes, just space between the words.

    Dave
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    Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 10:52 PM

    Jim:
    In L4, someone thinks that beautiful book icons are worth the screen space.

    I do.  They help me to quickly locate items of interest. The book names are not all that descriptive but the icons allow me to identify series, individual tomes, journals, at a glance.

     

    Jim:
    when I click on one, the window blanks and takes many seconds to open up to an expanded view

    I also find the screen repaint here to be annoying. The item clicked on appears in a completely different place on the screen which also takes me a second or so to relocate.

     

    Jim:
    it's getting really tiresome that when I click on a new resource it buries it in a tab in one of my panes and I have to go search for it

    I'd love some actual logic here as well.

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    MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 29 2010 12:28 AM

    Damian McGrath:

    Jim:
    In L4, someone thinks that beautiful book icons are worth the screen space.

    I do.  They help me to quickly locate items of interest. The book names are not all that descriptive but the icons allow me to identify series, individual tomes, journals, at a glance.

    I agree with Damian here. But there is one major aspect of L4 that I don't see mentioned. I wonder it others agree. In L3 it seems to me that everyone fell into similar patterns of use broken down into groups e.g. knowing/not knowing the original languages, writing/not writing sermons etc. In L4 we seem to develop more individualized ways of using the product. What some call esoteric is my every day use; what they use daily is something that wouldn't work well for me. I can understand why L3 still is the product of choice for certain working styles - at the same time I rarely go back even though L4 is still missing some very important features for me. There certainly are some features that annoy us all - the repainting of screens is an example. But it really seems to me that we've found different working styles that make us have very different opinions of how features should work - and we're all right. I'm certainly glad I'm not the lead analyst on Logos 4.

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    Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 29 2010 1:01 AM

    MJ. Smith:
    I can understand why L3 still is the product of choice for certain working styles

    The discussion is more about trying to adapt to L4's idiosyncrasies in areas like searching, finding topics, opening & positioning resources. There are ways in which L4 is much smarter eg. customisable Guides, or just different eg. Cited by, Information, Power Lookup. The new features definitely affect ones work method once they are appreciated eg. reverse interlinears, sympathetic highlighting, clippings, search results Analysis. 

    But the search methods are not easy to adopt coming from L3 and formal documentation is lacking. It's relatively easy for power users to adapt/workaround but I won't be removing L3 in a hurry! How many users have given up because they can't get proximity searches to work?

    MJ. Smith:
    In L4 we seem to develop more individualized ways of using the product.

    Yes, the feature requests clearly illustrate this point compared to what I observed through the Libronix period from 2003 to 2009.

    I'm glad I'm not the project managerBig Smile

    Dave
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    Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 29 2010 3:03 AM

    My 2 cents would be this:

    I liked L3...after i got used to it's idiosyncrasies...how "it likes" to work...and I taylored my work habits accordingly....L4 is the same....I had to adjust my work habits based on the software's "logic" or whatever you call it...

    Photoshop is the same....it's got it's own style of working...layers...keystrokes, hotkeys....I molded myself to how Photoshop likes to work....

    As for the simple lookup example given, I use it 50 times a day for "simple lookups" like..."all scripture god breathed" or whatever it was...

    In my case, I keep L4 running all day, and when i need to search something, I just click search, then choose what type of search....then type...the whole thing takes maybe...well, let's not estimate....hang on....

    ok...it was 7 seconds from hitting the search button to reading the results...I'm ok with that.

    I realize that L4 is picky in some way about machines....sometimes there doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason to what machines work well....but for me...I have no issues with this type of lookup...

     

    Now don't get me started on the topic search thing :) that's another issue...

     

    PS:

    Quoting Jim:

    I don't mean this to be negative. It's just that the novelty has worn off and I want the tool to be at least as efficient as Logos used to be for me.

    Perhaps, ( I hope) some new feature has been added lately that I'm missing?? I'm open to suggestions.

     

    Which version are you running? There are lots of good features in the current beta....

    Robert Pavich

    For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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    Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 29 2010 3:24 AM

    Jim...

    Per your "Philippians" example query...("I just started a study on Philippians and wanted to research articles on the letter." ) did you realize that this is a topic in L4? Just letting you know.....

    I realize that the topic search is not what it is in L3...but nevertheless, it's there...you might find it useful...

     

    Robert Pavich

    For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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    Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 29 2010 4:12 AM

    Mark Barnes:
    Sadly, I missed out on beta testing L4 Sad. But I think the #1 reason why I'm happy with L4 is not because I'm good with computers, but that I actually quite disliked L3, so I never got used to it. Sure, I used to use L3 a lot, but only really for reading books and the occasional search. Everything else seemed slow and cumbersome. So when L4 came along I never thought "this was better in L3" because I particularly really know how to do things in L3. I just learned L4 from scratch. Having no 'baggage', probably helped a lot.

    This describes my experience to a T.

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