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Aaron Stevens | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jul 3 2009 7:19 PM

Hi just wondering how the sentence diagraming works. i have the Scholars package, with heaps of wxtras, and latest updates. I have never used it before,

 

Thanks

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 3 2009 7:56 PM

AaronStevens:
just wondering how the sentence diagraming works

How it works depends on two things:

1) What you want to do

2) How much effort you want to put into ascetetic considerations

It is designed to do Kellogg-Reed diagrams. It does block diagrams, chiasm, parellels etc. reasonably well. You can make it work for arcing. Forget tree diagrams.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 47
Aaron Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 3 2009 10:25 PM

I found the part where I can manually do a diagram, but just wondering if there if anything in logos that will automatically diagram (line diagram, etc) a passage. I have all the lexham and opentext books for sentence analysis, but i want something else that will distinguish the verbs, nouns, etc the way a line diagram does.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 12:04 AM

AaronStevens:

I found the part where I can manually do a diagram, but just wondering if there if anything in logos that will automatically diagram (line diagram, etc) a passage.

I don't believe there is any automation nor have I seen anything in semantic computing to indicate linguists are close to an accurate automatic solution.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 150
Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 4:49 AM

Hi, MJ -

I don't know of any automated "old fashioned" :~) line-diagramming tools.  However Libronix does have several resources that come close to accomplishing the same thing, if you can get used to them.  I've got a Gold Scholars pkg (and a lot of extras) - i'm not sure but I think these things come with Gold Scholar.  Ask your salesman (Jared is GREAT, btw).

FIRST - for the NT Greek:

1. Coolest one imho is the OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis.  It needs a wide pane to review.  Lots of abbrev's BUT hover-help popups solve it.  Has "tree" format ... takes up a lot of space but quite informative.

2. Another format from OpenText.org is named the Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament.  The format is quite different - more compact - much like the RevInt approach ... but the clausal markings are inserted in the greek text.  Approx same info as #1, but different format.

3. The Lexham Clausal Outlines of the Greek New Testament.  Simpler than the other two, using a hybrid interlinear plus indentation approach, with words on the left to indicate the main and secondary clauses.  I also like this format ... a bit easier to read than the first two, and the abbreviations are not as complicated.

There are several other tools with morphology but no attempt at diagramming.  I suspect you are aware of these but I'll list em anyway:

4. The UBS4 Int Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Ed (Interlinear with Morphology). This is like the ESV RevInt but with some extra helps in an extra row, that assist in translating particles, etc which have a heavy clausal component.

5. Nestle-Aland Greek NT, 27th Ed with GRAMCORD Grk NT Alpha Morphological Database and McReynolds. Same format as #4.  Presumably different inplaces, due to diff source-texts.

6. ESV NT Rev-Int, which of course is Libronix's premier ver 3 thing.  I'm sure you're aware of it.  I use it very frequently.

7. NRSV NT Rev-Int, same as #6 but different source-text

8. Newberry Interlinear Literal Translation of the Greek NT, similar to format of #6 but based on Greek word order (classic interlinear style).  It's claim to fame is Textus Receptus sources.  (fwiw)

9. Last but not least, one of my favorites because of its tight format and ease of use, AMG's Complete Word Study Bible (King James).  Afaik they have recently completed a significant update.  Comes with some excellent lexical aids.  Although I don't *totally* agree with all of Zodhiates' interp's, I think his work is EXCELLENT.  These helps not only tie to lexicons, but also to TVM.  The morphology is adequate for most quick-n-dirty q/a.  There is NO greek text here.

AFAIK, Less is Available for OT- Hebrew:

a. The Hebrew Bible: Andersen-Forbes Phrase Marker Analysis (0.80)  This is much like #1, with lots of lines in a tree format and lots of abbreviations .. but somewhat less cryptic - closest to what you might think of as a line-diagram, I suppose..  Very useful.  As I recall, it's still under development.  I'm not sure if I have the most recent version.

b. A Systematic Glossary to the Andersen-Forbes Analysis of the Hebrew Bible.  This is a separate document which REALLY HELPS with item a.  Defines their terminology and provides some useful graphics to illustrate the relationships.

Again, there are several other tools with morphology but no attempt at diagramming.  I suspect you are aware of these but I'll list em anyway:

c. ESV OT Rev Int - same comments as for #6, but not quite as many interlinear options.

d. Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible (LHI).  Similar to #8 Newberry, based on TR afaik, with no Strongs numbers.  Biggest negative here is that the Morphological tags do NOT offer hover-popup ID's.  Ungood.  Needs to be fixed.

e. Again, last but not least, AMG's Complete Word Study Bible (King James).  Same format and comments as for #9 above. 

I hope this helps.  If anyone else knows of some interlinear-morphology and/or clausal-phrase tools for Grk &/or Heb within the Libronix world, please let me know.  It's been somewhat difficult (for me) to collect all these together ... Logos doesn't provide any canned workspaces for them, and I had to just search around.  I have put together two (NT/OT) pretty functional workspace layouts that hold all these plus some lexical aids ... if anyone wants a copy, email me (hvacsage@yahoo.com) and I'll send them to you.

 

=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
Jim Dean

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 10:43 AM

JimDean:
I don't know of any automated "old fashioned" :~) line-diagramming tools.  However Libronix does have several resources that come close to accomplishing the same thing, if you can get used to them.  I've got a Gold Scholars pkg (and a lot of extras) - i'm not sure but I think these things come with Gold Scholar.  Ask your salesman (Jared is GREAT, btw).

Thank you - your list is very informative. I fear that I was thinking more norrowly (diagrams) rather than morphology in general. Good to have someone think a bit more globally.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 136
Mark Hoffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 7:19 PM

Additional info on the Westminster Hebrew Bible Syntax HERE.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 7:29 PM

Mark Hoffman:

Additional info on the Westminster Hebrew Bible Syntax HERE.

Humpf !  Did you ever run a paragraph or a page through Babelfish ?  Sometimes you can make sense out of it, but even then it's as funny as a location somewhat warmer than Death Valley in the summer.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 9:24 PM

Mark Hoffman:

Additional info on the Westminster Hebrew Bible Syntax HERE.

It does look interesting - plus it uses the type of sentence diagram I find useful.  I'd like a second sentence diagrammer in Logos that is similar to Ling Tree Constructor.

I, too, am curious as to how they programmed the computer. I've just begun to learn Hebrew and have already hit significant differences of opinion over the description of the Hebrew verb system.  If they can't agree on descriptive grammar ... you get my point. But they are explicit that they computerized the morphological analysis.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 9:54 PM

George Somsel:
Did you ever run a paragraph or a page through Babelfish ?

But doesn't the Babelfish belong in the ear? Perhaps if one found Douglas Adams' user manual ...

Seriously, by carefully chosing the material one puts through Babelfish, one can control the quality of the output - from very close to riotously ridiculous. If one is working with a contained group of documents, they should be able to be reasonably accurate.  If they take the tack of the Sanskrit sites, they may offer alternatives when the sentence is grammatically ambiguous. [Should I mention that the first sentence I ran through the Sanskrit tool resulted in 34 possibilities - none of which was the correct analysis?]

But I do think that Logos should reconsider its Kellogg-Reed choice - it works well for English (most of the time) but that doesn't mean it works well for Hebrew.  Kellogg-Reed presumes that meaning is embedded in individual words, not that the prefixes and suffixes of the word may have independent meaning. Of course, I'd also like to see support for frame semantics analysis for verbs (example: http://framenet.icsi.berkeley.edu/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=118&frame=Creating&)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 47
Aaron Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 5 2009 3:40 AM

Hi thanks for the link, i had a look at a few more of the other articles on this blog, and this one caught my eye.

 

If you read it it talks about the different diagramming techniques.

the third picture down is a screen shot of Bibleworks 7, which already has the diagramming done for you.

Below is a copy paste from that blog.

BUT, did I need to bother to do the diagramming myself anyway? BibleWorks7 has a complete set of diagrams already included. (Right click on the Greek text in the browse window and choose "Open NT diagram at this word.") It looks like this:

 

 

This is what i am wondering if there is anything that does this in Logos.  I know that i can do it manually, but it would save me much time if i don't have too.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 5 2009 4:27 AM

AaronStevens:
This is what i am wondering if there is anything that does this in Logos.  I know that i can do it manually, but it would save me much time if i don't have too.

The question is, "What would you learn by not doing it yourself?"

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 47
Aaron Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 5 2009 5:26 AM

I know how to do it, but it takes time to do one, depending on how many verses i am studying, so why do it the hard long way if there is a short easy way to do it.... isn't that why we use Logos in the first place ;-P

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 6 2009 11:56 AM

AaronStevens:
isn't that why we use Logos in the first place
\\

Sometimes - depends on my purpose.  However, having gone back to Kantenwein's Diagrammatical Analysis, I was reminded of how much I wish that Logos supported graphic organizers more thoroughly - for example, the "Analysis Word Sheets" of Kantenwein, the verb analysis of Biblical Hebrew (2nd ed. Kittel, Hoffer and Wright) ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 71
Aeolus Jacobus | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 6 2009 2:09 PM

Not to hijack this thread but can someone tell me what sentence diagramming does exactly? I've taken a year of greek, and don't see the point of it. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 6 2009 3:36 PM

Aeolus Jacobus:

Not to hijack this thread but can someone tell me what sentence diagramming does exactly? I've taken a year of greek, and don't see the point of it. 

I suspect you will receive a variety of different answers.  Some see it as a base for exegesis. I see it as a way to tease out very complex sentences into their possible constructions (i.e. what modifies what, what is a dependent clause dependent on etc.) and pick the one I think best reflects the intended meaning of the author ... or highlight the ambiguity of the sentence. At least that's how I use the Kellogg-Reed diagrams that Logos supports - something I learned in grade school.

There are also tree diagrams ("Warnier-Orr" style, X-bar style) that are used in linguistics and computer linguistics to support a number of network and syntactic theories. I probably use these more when I am working with foreign languages because they handle inflections (declinations and conjugations) more easily and were not originally designed to support English sentence structure.I would include arcing here as a high-level "Warnier-Orr" style although its creator might not see it that way.

For semantics, I slip into networks and frames.

So if you gather that sentence diagramming is an effective tool to assist you in resolving particular sentence level language problems you know everything you need to know. And like any tool you add to your skill set it can be very useful if used judiciously or it can be abused to the point of simply wasting time.

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 71
Aeolus Jacobus | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 6 2009 4:50 PM

MJ. Smith:

Aeolus Jacobus:

Not to hijack this thread but can someone tell me what sentence diagramming does exactly? I've taken a year of greek, and don't see the point of it. 

I suspect you will receive a variety of different answers.  Some see it as a base for exegesis. I see it as a way to tease out very complex sentences into their possible constructions (i.e. what modifies what, what is a dependent clause dependent on etc.) and pick the one I think best reflects the intended meaning of the author ... or highlight the ambiguity of the sentence. At least that's how I use the Kellogg-Reed diagrams that Logos supports - something I learned in grade school.

There are also tree diagrams ("Warnier-Orr" style, X-bar style) that are used in linguistics and computer linguistics to support a number of network and syntactic theories. I probably use these more when I am working with foreign languages because they handle inflections (declinations and conjugations) more easily and were not originally designed to support English sentence structure.I would include arcing here as a high-level "Warnier-Orr" style although its creator might not see it that way.

For semantics, I slip into networks and frames.

So if you gather that sentence diagramming is an effective tool to assist you in resolving particular sentence level language problems you know everything you need to know. And like any tool you add to your skill set it can be very useful if used judiciously or it can be abused to the point of simply wasting time.

 

 

I'm familiar with breaking down a sentence into its different parts, but the UI I see in the sentence diagrammer seems cumbersome and much slower than doing it by hand. Is this really any better? I feel like I could come up with my own ssystem or figure something out and be able to label faster than my mouse can run over to a tool bar and bring over various tools. For instance in Latin what I do is underline verbs, circle nouns( and place the letter of the case) and put a squiggly line under adj. that is just a sample. But I don't see that I could do that faster on the computer. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 6 2009 5:53 PM

Aeolus Jacobus:
the UI I see in the sentence diagrammer seems cumbersome and much slower than doing it by hand.

Generally, doing them by hand is quicker.  I use computer tools in three cases:

1) I want to keep my results and know I'd mislay the napkin I'm copying

2) I want to be able to move parts around because I can't quite figure out how the phrases/clauses fit together

3) I want the finished result to look good in a presentation - or be embedded in a computer document

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 128
Terry Cook | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2009 5:16 AM

Aaron,

The SD has been discussed at great lengths in the previously quite popular newsgroups. If you make your way over there you will find those discussions AND you will find several Reed-Kellogg diagrams (I have posted all 6 chapters of Galatians) as well as other types of diagrams.

Sadly, the rich horde of resources that can be mined from the ng's is in danger of being lost.

Terry Cook

sDg

Posts 13
Kenton Church EPC | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 24 2009 11:31 PM

The purpose of diagramming a sentence is so you preach the main point and not an illustration of the main point.

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