Nicene Creed "We believe" or "I believe"
Has anyone seen the difference between the Nicene Creed located in Historic Creeds and Confessions and the Creed as displayed in Schaff' History of the Christian Church?
Historic Creeds has "I believe in One God, . . . ." and Schaff has "We believe in one God, . . . ."
Not that it's a hugh difference but because the Gk. has Πιστεύομεν (first p. pl.) wouldn't the text of Historic Creeds and Confessions be incorrect? Or, is there an explaination for the difference?
I'd like to know if anyone knows why there is the difference.
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Historic Creeds and Confessions is a nice resource for quick reference but the texts of the confessions in it are not completely reliable. Another example: in the Belgic Confession article 36 has been shortened (I believe this is the official text of the CRC?). I would have liked to see at least a footnote mentioning what has been left out.
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Milkman,
The wikipedia article is worth looking at.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed#Ancient_liturgical_versions
The form in which the creed was received by the churches of East and West was in the singular.
I don't have Historic Creeds and Confessions - but, from what is shown, the text is not that of the Nicene Creed of 325 (note the "maker of heaven and earth") - it appears to be the Nicaeno-Constantinapolitan Creed as received liturgically.
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There are lots of English translations of the Nicene Creed. I'm not sure whether there's one "official" version that all accept as the standard. I hadn't even noticed there were any differences until recently. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_versions_of_the_Nicene_Creed_in_current_use. There are lots of versions of the Apostles' Creed too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles'_Creed
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If I recall the texts of the first two official councils, First Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople, used "We believe". But the liturgy of the early Christian Church used "I believe". Starting Advent of 2011, the Catholic Church Latin rite is going back to using "I believe" in its Roman Missal, in recognition that it's more authentic to the early liturgy.
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Damian McGrath said:
The wikipedia article is worth looking at.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed#Ancient_liturgical_versions
The form in which the creed was received by the churches of East and West was in the singular.
Interesting. It looks like the plural translation came from the Armenian version.
I've sometimes been in worship settings where the leader has chosen to have us replace "I" language in a hymn or liturgical prayer with "We" to emphasize our unity in the Body of Christ as opposed to a totally individualistic faith. These decisions could have been made centuries ago too, by other liturgists, and the changes passed down in their particular denominations. All this study tells me is that there is historical precedent for both singular and plural, and one could argue theologically for the primacy of either version or the other. When affirming a creed together in community, it doesn't much matter if you recite it as "I" or "We" as you're all joining voices together with what you each individually believe. If someone doesn't believe it, he or she can opt out. But sometimes the very reciting of it together in the church over and over again helps shape that belief in the congregants, if they really think about what they're saying.
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Dominick Sela said:
Starting Advent of 2011, the Catholic Church Latin rite is going back to using "I believe" in its Roman Missal, in recognition that it's more authentic to the early liturgy.
Not quite Dominick. The English translation is going back to "I believe." The Latin typical edition has always been in the singular and a quick look at my Italian, French and German missals shows that in all of these languages it is in the singular.
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Rosie Perera said:
Interesting. It looks like the plural translation came from the Armenian version.
Sorry Rosie. You need to read higher on the page. The plural is the original from the Councils. What I pointed to was the liturgical not conciliar versions.
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If only there was available a critical edition of the confessions [;)]
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Damian McGrath said:
Not quite Dominick. The English translation is going back to "I believe." The Latin typical edition has always been in the singular and a quick look at my Italian, French and German missals shows that in all of these languages it is in the singular.
You are right Damian, the English version has been out of step. I should have said English translation of the Roman Missal....
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OK. I've just spent the ten dollars.
The "Nicene Creed" in Historic Creeds and Confessions is definitely not the Nicene Creed. It is a translation of what Schaff rightly calls the Nicaeno-Constantinapolitan Creed - note all the expansions wrt the Holy Spirit and the addition re the Church.
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Wow...what an interesting thread...i would have never noticed the difference.
Thanks for shedding light on what the wording is...and why they differ.
bob
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Damian McGrath said:
Milkman,
The wikipedia article is worth looking at.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed#Ancient_liturgical_versions
The form in which the creed was received by the churches of East and West was in the singular.
I don't have Historic Creeds and Confessions - but, from what is shown, the text is not that of the Nicene Creed of 325 (note the "maker of heaven and earth") - it appears to be the Nicaeno-Constantinapolitan Creed as received liturgically.
Peace, Damian..... ..... thanks much for that wikipedia link!
Very helpful! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Perhaps a bit off topic, but does anyone know of a good (devotional) commentary on the Nicene Creed in English? I have a lot of devotional commentaries on the Apostles' Creed (all of them in Dutch or German, so I won't suggest them to Logos), but only one on the Nicaeno-Constantinopolitan Creed.
I noticed Logos already offers a book by L.Charles Jackson, "Faith of Our Fathers" (http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/FTHOFRFATHRS). Would anyone recommend this resource?
At Amazon I came across another book with the title "WE Believe: Forty Meditations on the Nicene Creed".
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Peace to you, Good Brother! *smile*Hendrik-Jan van der Wal said:Perhaps a bit off topic, but does anyone know of a good (devotional) commentary on the Nicene Creed in English? I have a lot of devotional commentaries on the Apostles' Creed (all of them in Dutch or German, so I won't suggest them to Logos), but only one on the Nicaeno-Constantinopolitan Creed.
I noticed Logos already offers a book by L.Charles Jackson, "Faith of Our Fathers" (http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/FTHOFRFATHRS). Would anyone recommend this resource?
At Amazon I came across another book with the title "WE Believe: Forty Meditations on the Nicene Creed".
This is an interesting devotional way to connect the Nicene Creed to Holy Scripture ..
... and vice versa
http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/10/07/the-bible-summarized-in-only-a-few-words/
Enjoy!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
This is an interesting devotional way to connect the Nicene Creed to Holy Scripture ..
... and vice versa
http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/10/07/the-bible-summarized-in-only-a-few-words/
Thank you, Milford. That looks like it would make an awesome Bible study. Blessings!
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Peace to you, Good Brother! *smile*
Shalom! [:)]
Milford Charles Murray said:Thank you very much, Milford!
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both very welcome indeed! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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To try to get back to the original question: perhaps we are putting too much emphasis on the concept of accurate translation, which by default assumes there are exact equivalences between languages and thus any given "translation" is either correct or incorrect. What if the answer were more of a "yes, maybe, but both". Was the Nicene Creed developed for use by the Church liturgically where everyone is reciting it together in harmony to express a common creed held by all present? If this were the case then the Church cannot be one (ie: singular), it is a minimum of "two or three gathered together". So even if each individual is saying "I", the setting and purpose say "We".
Or was the Nicene Creed developed for the purpose of examining the Orthodoxy of individual believers challenged to confess their faith before the larger body of the Church? It would seem that only in this sense would a strict singular "I" be appropriate. (Because what "I" believe may be different from what you believe so "we" are not quite of one mind)
Fascinating topic........ [:)]
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Dominick Sela said:
I should have said English translation of the Roman Missal....
Now I understand why the Empire was powerful for so long....they had Roman missals.
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Dan Sheppard said:Dominick Sela said:
I should have said English translation of the Roman Missal....
Now I understand why the Empire was powerful for so long....they had Roman missals.
Or was that Roman missiles? [;)]
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Hendrik-Jan van der Wal said:
At Amazon I came across another book with the title "WE Believe: Forty Meditations on the Nicene Creed".
An abbreviated version of Richard Maffeo's reflections (well 20 of them so far) are available here: http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/richmaffeo/
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There's an excellent article about the opening of the Nicene Creed at:
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7647
The original Greek is clearly "We believe" which as always been used in the Eastern Church. The west, however, very early on changed this to the singular when translating to Latin "credo" because the the Creed was used as a 'baptismal confession.' (There are also Latin translations using the plural as well). Thus, the long history of the Western Church is a mix of singular and plural usage; but the original text was a plural confession from the gathered bishops (both in 325 and again in 381).
Peter
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Welcome to the forums Peter. [:)] Very interesting article.
Wow! This is an old thread. There is certainly no prohibition in bringing back an old conversation and this one has some very interesting information in it. Question:
How would that research look using Logos/Verbum 6 and library resources? Maybe you could start a more current thread with comments.
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The Greek text cited by Milkman pretends to quote "The Nicean Creed of 325." This is an egregious blunder. There is no evidence regarding the Nicean Creed of either 325 or 381. At the next council in 431, the fathers wanted to affirm the creed, so they say they searched for and found a copy in the Patriarchal library. I.e., there is no manuscript anywhere in existence that contains the text of the 325 or 381 text.
Every text since 431 has "I" and not "we." The Greek (and Russian) Orthodox church says "I," and always has, as far as anyone knows.
I doubt anyone will read this. Still, I will ask the quetion. I am convinced that there is no ancient or medieval manuscript or any missal printed before 1950 that has "we" instead of "I" in the creed. If anyone knows of one, please let me know. jan8142@gmail.com. The second question is: Why do contemporary liturgists think they are more knowledgable and wiser than all the great theologians and saints that lived during the past 1700 years. If something is not broken, why mess with it?
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A bit of advice Jan. I suggest you edit out your email addy before you get spammed.
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Jan Rogozinski said:
I doubt anyone will read this. Still, I will ask the quetion. I am convinced that there is no ancient or medieval manuscript or any missal printed before 1950 that has "we" instead of "I" in the creed. If anyone knows of one,
Welcome to the forums.
Wikipedia: Nicene Creed said:The churches of Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian churches use this profession of faith with the verbs in the original plural ("we believe") form. The Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church use it with the verbs of believing changed to the singular ("I believe") form. The Anglican Communion and many Protestant denominations also use it, sometimes with the verbs of believing in the plural form but generally in the singular.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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