LOGOS E-Book Cost - NEW POST

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Posts 249
Fred J. Morgan | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Oct 19 2010 6:09 PM
 

Good Response from the Shame on LOGOS.

 

However. Those who did not like it had it locked Out form further comment.

 

Free speech and all... Providing you don't differ from the Forum HOST.

 

I did not appreciate the personal E-mail which were more hateful and dishonoring to yourselves and God than to me.

 

There were many who do not understand E-Publications, Copyright and Mark-Up... Maybe some comment here is in order

 

The Questions are; but may be extended:

 

  •  Should you pay more for a Brand Name it is the Same as the Generic?

 

  • If a Company has trademarked on The FORMAT (i.e. LOGOS.lbx) your are forced to buy from the company. This would be similar to Having to Buy a Genuine Porsche part instead of going to Discount Auto.  Is this a good way to spread God's word?

 

  • Does Capitalism take precedence over Christian Character in a Christian company?

 

  • If 25% is considered a fair market markup, is it Christian to markup higher because you maintain control on your product?

 

 

Thanks for any responses

 

God Bless

 

Fred Morgan

Posts 249
Fred J. Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 6:12 PM

 

As for the people who did not appreciate this topic and accused me of not appreciating capitolizm, or not wish LOGOS good business and the other horrible E-mails I received, I can only say sorry.

My beliefs are that God mad this work perfect until sin entered into it. The OT not only shows us Christ to come but also teaches us the many ways God, for love of his creation attempted to correct this problem, from the flood, to selecting a chosen people, giving natural laws and providing offerings for atonement, sending deliverers, more laws and sacrifices, judges to challenge and return his people and show his love and kings demanded by the people to lead and show that even good kings are still of man and thus in sin -- all to the avail that the "World of Sin" or The Kingdom of Earth, are not of Gods choose and that God still loved his creation.

In the NT, God so loved the world that He sent his Word, the son of man, to live a perfect life without sin and to suffer the death of the cross, providing himself as the sacrificial lamb. In doing so he provided us with not only a way to live, but forgiveness, not through burnt offerings, or human works which could never be made without sin in our nature. but through his sacrifice on the cross. All we are to do is to believe (Jn 3:16) True belief then brings us the works of Love and the accomplishment of his commands to love God, and love one another. All our accomplishment in life is from this or they are from ourselves and thus carnal!

God created this Kingdom and man allowed it to be corrupted by sin, God also has an Eternal incorruptible kingdom. We can live in this kingdom on Earth, but to become part of it, and relish all in this kingdom - but this is not what the Bible teaches. We must (from birth) live in this kingdom, living as to prepare ourselves for God's kingdom, but we should not be of this kingdom! Your large nice house, your money, your clothes, even your happiness in this world means nothing if it is without Christ. Riches/Being Nice/Helping others/Going to a Church Building was all it took then everyone is saved. If Capitalism is taking your profit margin to make you successful in this world, and you think God is behind this, we believe in a different God. If you believe Jesus is making you wealthy, healthy and wise, SERIOUSLY ask yourselves what did the Apostles do wrong?

Just my beliefs.

God bless all, this is America and you can believe what you want.

Sincerely in Christ (still making mistake after my stroke, forgive me)

Fred J Morgan

Posts 249
Fred J. Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 6:30 PM

 

Copyright and Public Domain is a real issue. Those who own a books copyright deserve their profit, and most agree to a realistic amount, thus books, even low selling ones can be printed at a reasonable cost.

There is some confusion in copyright on a public domain according to the letter I have received.

The King James Bible is A Public Domain... The Nelson Edition is Copyright.... Solution find a version of the KJB out of Copyright and use it. This is I am sure what you do with MANY MANY of your works. I would also use this tactic in old works when using E-Publication. This is how E-Sword produces so many works at no cost - No Copyright Fee, Compilers do this Freely like the PBB compilers on StilltheTruith.com does for L3 PBBs - Thus Free Books. This is also I am sure why your company and other Bible software companies including those sell for under $20 can offer very large libraries - They simply do not supply the Copywriter Edition of the Bibles like NKJV, Holman, etc., etc.

 

Old works as is found in many of the Encyclopedias, commentaries, books etc., from the 1900's and before are likely no longer in copyright. You may find for example "The Works of Philo" which is a public domain in a book by a publisher which is copyrighted. It is the Printing itself with the new footnotes, Introduction, page numbers. Etc., which is in copyright - not the writings of Philo himself.

 

There are some books where copyright is in question. For example, "Genesis and the Ancient Records" I believe the name is which was printed in about 1927 and reprinted by the authors son in the late 80's. This is the famous "Tablet Theory Book" - Really an excellent book which should be in the LOGOS' library. It is a Gray Book in that copyright is not certain or has not been released due to a legal problem.

 

Books which are copyrighted of course belong to the publisher and author, either one or both. They to may be fully reproduced in E-Format with permission of the owner. Usually this is done on a base payment and a commission per book sold. Most authors want their books sold. The more distribution the better. Thus many authors will set reasonable cost. Others may be approached by companies like LOGOS with a deal. Others may approach companies and pay for publication offering the company a commission and sometimes even paying the company upfront for production cost. LOGOS does have a department where authors may apply to publish in LOGOS for a fee and commission. Thus some books published actually LOGOS very little to produce.

 

More info is welcome

 

God Bless

 

Fred Morgan

Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 6:36 PM

I wrote out my long rebuttal, highlighted it, then deleted it.  I feel much better now! Geeked Snail Yes

Posts 10
Norman J Meyer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 6:46 PM

Brother - my heart aches as I read your posts.  I'm not sure what emails you received, and to the extent that they were not in love, it is disappointing.  I know you are convinced that you have been wronged, and given your perspective I completely understand why.  Given the information and technical understanding you have there is no possible way to come to a different conclusion.  And it seems justifiable to post to this forum and express your concerns, and exhort your Christian brothers to Christlike love.  But let me humble say that I don't think your perspective on the product that LOGOS is offering is quite correct.  When they sell a book, it is much, much, more than an e-book.  And it takes much more effort to produce than an e-book.  I don't have the time to explain, but I think your analogy of buying a generic car part instead of the brand name just isn't applicable.  It's like comparing apples and oranges.  If that doesn't make sense, I encourage you to just live with the misunderstanding.  Personally, I have found LOGOS to be one of the best Christian companies I have ever dealt with.  To me they walk the fine line of showing Christian charity with the need to generate revenue to further their research and development with extreme grace.  In fact, I have been a costumer since around 1998, and the degree to which they have advanced the product has been an amazing blessing to me and the ministies to which I am devoted.

From your post I can tell you have an immense passion for Christ, and a great understanding of the gospel and what it means to live for the kingdom and not this world.  I just ask you to consider that you may be mistaken in your judgment of the situation.  Regardless, I think you have faithfully followed your conscience, and the rest is in God's hands.  The kingdom needs your energies devoted elsewhere, and I pray God provides the fincancial means or resources that will multiply your service to His kingdom, including all the bible software resources you need.  - your brother in Christ

Posts 249
Fred J. Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 6:52 PM

 

Bad Letters Mean Responses

Who am I and What I Believe

 

No, Joseph, David, Henry, Rosie, and other E-mailers (Yes my e-mail is on face-book)

I am not a Mean-spirited, Communist, Socialist, Pacifist and I BELIEVE NOT A JERK, though others may disagree.

 

I was born in a devout Baptist Family. My Great Grandfathers (ALL) AND Grandfathers were Baptist ministers. Many South Georgia Baptist Churches were founded by my family. I attended and was Baptized in Christ at an early age. I have always believed in God though Science did change me to a theist during my late teens all the way thru and into my 40's. I am a disabled Army Vet. I now believe in Non-Resistance (Not a Pacifist), The Bible is True and is the Word of God in it's entirety. I divorced and after reading the New Testament again from a Bible believing point I changed my opinion on Divorce and remarried my Ex-Wife of 21 years (now going on 35 Years).

I try to live in this tainted world but not be of it.

I am currently a Believer (Apostolic Early Church beliefs) who loves God the Bible and cherish my wife and family. I find the Anabaptist – Charity groups to be the closest to my beliefs.

 

I hope this gives you some better adjectives to call me.

 

As for the people who did not appreciate this topic and accused me of not appreciating capitolizm, or not wish LOGOS good business and the other horrible E-mails I received, I can only say sorry.

My beliefs are that God mad this work perfect until sin entered into it. The OT not only shows us Christ to come but also teaches us the many ways God, for love of his creation attempted to correct this problem, from the flood, to selecting a chosen people, giving natural laws and providing offerings for atonement, sending deliverers, more laws and sacrifices, judges to challenge and return his people and show his love and kings demanded by the people to lead and show that even good kings are still of man and thus in sin -- all to the avail that the "World of Sin" or The Kingdom of Earth, are not of Gods choose and that God still loved his creation.

In the NT, God so loved the world that He sent his Word, the son of man, to live a perfect life without sin and to suffer the death of the cross, providing himself as the sacrificial lamb. In doing so he provided us with not only a way to live, but forgiveness, not through burnt offerings, or human works which could never be made without sin in our nature. but through his sacrifice on the cross. All we are to do is to believe (Jn 3:16) True belief then brings us the works of Love and the accomplishment of his commands to love God, and love one another. All our accomplishment in life is from this or they are from ourselves and thus carnal!

God created this Kingdom and man allowed it to be corrupted by sin, God also has an Eternal incorruptible kingdom. We can live in this kingdom on Earth, but to become part of it, and relish all in this kingdom - but this is not what the Bible teaches. We must (from birth) live in this kingdom, living as to prepare ourselves for God's kingdom, but we should not be of this kingdom! Your large nice house, your money, your clothes, even your happiness in this world means nothing if it is without Christ. Riches/Being Nice/Helping others/Going to a Church Building was all it took then everyone is saved. If Capitalism is taking your profit margin to make you successful in this world, and you think God is behind this, we believe in a different God. If you believe Jesus is making you wealthy, healthy and wise, SERIOUSLY ask yourselves what did the Apostles do wrong?

Just my beliefs.

God bless all, this is America and you can believe what you want.

Sincerely in Christ (still making mistake after my stroke, forgive me)

Fred J Morgan

 

 

Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 7:02 PM

Fred, your latest post has moved off topic from anything pertaining to Logos.  You are also dropping names in an attempt to make public what was taken to you privately.  Its clear you're exacting revenge in a public forum.

I feel Norman's post could not have been worded any better or grace filled.  This is yet another request to move on or take it up with Logos personally.  This is not the place for something of this nature.  

Posts 498
Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 7:29 PM

Fred,

I'm doing this before work, so its gonna be quick and you're gonna have to be the one to look up all the links.

You're original problem stemmed from Logos having a $700 price tag on a $100 resource.

1. Those two products aren't the same. One version is out of date by some 60 years, the other is brand new, published just last year. The brand new one is the 31-volume edition, while the old one is the 14-volume edition.

2. If you were to buy the print book on CBD.com, it would cost you $350. That's the same version that Logos offers digitally, not the cheap Hendrickson hardback reprint you were looking at for $99 that CBD is putting on sale for a limited time. Apples to oranges.

3. If you were to buy the print book elsewhere, Amazon has it for $995, and the publisher has it for $1095. Logos sells it for $700, and as it has been mentioned before, buy calling a sales representative you can get it for much cheaper.

4. I'll let more knowledgeable people fill you in (like Logos' president, Bob Pritchard, who has responded to your previous posts) on the economics of producing electronic, digitally marked-up text. But either way, with the work they put into a resource, especially one the size of Barth's Church Dogmatics, the price is justified and very fair for both parties involved.

Thank you,

Greg

Posts 1467
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 7:32 PM

I believe a company can and should be run as the person who started or runs the company desires. If that person desires to mark up a product 50% he has that right. Many may not buy that product, and that is their right. As a consumer we do not dictate how the company is run, we are not even an employing. We do have the right to voice our opinion, which most company's appreciate (including I am sure logos). If you dont like how the company is run or the price of the product they provide as a consumer you have to right to shop elsewhere.

This all really part in our spiritual walk ... As an example I am called to walk in the light that God has given me.. I believe certain doctrines that maybe some others do not. But am not called to force those beliefs on someone else. God has called other people to walk in the light he has given them. We as humans seem to aspire to be God. I say this in the sense that God created man in his image and we as men try to conform every other into our image our belief system. We are called to  share what we believe and why we believe, but if someone does not see that as the way they should walk that's all we can do. We should not try to force people into our mold. God is the potter we are the clay, he molds us and makes us. I came too that realization recently in my walk, I was trying to get everyone to believe in my form of systematic theology but I realized that I need to walk in my own light, not force everyone into my light. I share what I believe but whether they see it my way is not up to me.

I guess what I am trying to say is we have the freedom to voice our opinion )share what we believe( but if they dont want to accept that way of thinking.. well then so be it. In short I appreciate you expressing your opinion Fred, and I am thankful to God that we have the right to do so but I believe Logos is a great company, there are little things that I believe they can change also. However they have the right to run their company the way they want. I pray that the Lord can use this post for his glory, that I did not speak out of my flesh but in the spirit. Thank you for your sharing your perspective, I learned a bit from what you posted Fred. God Bless may God be glorified in all we do and say..

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 8:02 PM

Fred, you misspelled 'I apologize for accusing Logos falsely'.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 399
Wilson Hines | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 8:03 PM

Um, kay.  

This is insanity.  Absolute insanity.  Why can't we just move forward.  

Stuff like this, but not quite this crazy, is sort of stuff for which I left the newsgroups a few years ago.  It just breaks my eyeballs to see this mess.

Wilson Hines

Posts 3688
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 8:07 PM

Fred:

I supported your original post - but the continued run of postings that you are making do not seem necessary.  I am sorry for the e-mails you have received - they also seem unnecessary.  

I trust that all those involved can sit back and find ways to share God's grace to all those participating in these discussions.

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 652
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 8:15 PM

Threads like this is exactly why God created locked threads and Logos needs to lock this silliness down. Fred, just give it up.

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 8:24 PM

Fred you had your free speech even though free speech is not supported in Scripture (the Scriptures place explicit restrictions on our speech, one of which is to tell the truth instead of accusing people falsely).

You took your opportunity to accuse Logos, and you did so. No one prevented you from doing that. You also asked a question. That question was answered. It was answered in such a way that proved your original accusation was false.

It's really that simple. The thread wasn't locked because you were being censored, it was locked because there was literally no reason for it to be open anymore, because you had received an answer to your question. Trying to justify your error further with yet another thread isn't going to get you anywhere.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 652
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 8:34 PM

Free speech is public free speech, not privately-owned-message-board-free-speech too.

Posts 1467
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 9:05 PM

Jeremy:

Free speech is public free speech, not privately-owned-message-board-free-speech too.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

I believe the free speech in the constitution applies to the congress making laws. Business dont make laws they have rules within their organization. However there is a universal declaration of human rights drawn up by the UN article 19 states

"Article 19 

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."

So does one loose their freedom of expression when they walk into a building owned by a company? When should we loose our freedom us expression?

As Christians we loose our freedom of expression when it causes another brother to stumble. And it not a matter of us loosing it but a matter of us giving it up. At least that's what has been given to me. 

Romans 14:1;10–12(ESV) — 1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

To God be the glory let us glorify and honor him... Blessings in Christ

 

  

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 10:17 PM

To add to what Jeremy said, there's no such thing as free speech when you're in someone else's house. Nor is there any such thing as free speech in the Bible. Quite apart from that, no private organization such as Logo is legally obligated to use its resources to provide anyone with a personal platform for their own views. There's no free speech issue here.

Waving around the 'free speech' banner as if it overrode both the law of the land and what Scripture says, is one of Fred's other mistakes.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 1467
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 10:39 PM

Jonathan Burke:

To add to what Jeremy said, there's no such thing as free speech when you're in someone else's house. Nor is there any such thing as free speech in the Bible. Quite apart from that, no private organization such as Logo is legally obligated to use its resources to provide anyone with a personal platform for their own views. There's no free speech issue here.

Waving around the 'free speech' banner as if it overrode both the law of the land and what Scripture says, is one of Fred's other mistakes.

I am not aware that you loose your constitutional right when your in someone else's house. There are many things I dont know.. Could you please provide a reference to that law? You are absolutely right that logos can ban whoever they like from the forum (it's there forum) they make the rules in their own company. 

I am really concerned of with peoples perspective on censorship, for example does a kid have the right to wear a cross to school? It their school,do they have the right to censor the student? Alot of these things are happening in the united states right now. I am not saying my perspective is right, but its the best understanding that I have been able to obtain thus far. At what point do we loose our freedoms given to us under the constitution? Can we ever loose our freedom. This topic is a bit off of the original but it does pertain to it. 

 

"1st Amendment Warning for CO School 

It's an issue that just won't go away - religious expression of students in school.

You'll remember the action we took for a New York middle school student who was disciplined for wearing a rosary to school.  We had to go to federal court on that case and ultimately succeeded in protecting the constitutional rights of our client.  And after the court's decision to grant a motion for a temporary restraining order, the school district ended its policy of preventing the wearing of rosaries to school. " - ACLJ.ORG

Jay Sekulow's Trial Notebook http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?ID=1005

That's just my perspective. Wheither it's something you uphold or head to is between you and God. 

God Bless..

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 11:05 PM

Blair, you don't lose your constitutional right to free speech when you're in someone else's house. My point was that they are under no obligation to provide you with their house as a platform for expressing your opinion. They can ask you leave, and if you don't leave they can call the police who will make you leave.You can continue to exercise your free speech all you like, off their property.

There are no free speech violations when someone asks you to leave their property. There aren't even any free speech violations when the people who own the property ask you to moderate your language while you're on their property,on pain of expulsion. Your free speech is not being infringed. They are simply choosing not to provide you with their private property as a platform for your opinion.

It's no more a violation of free speech when a publisher rejects your book, a newspaper doesn't publish your letter to the editor, or when an academic journal doesn't publish your research article. There is a difference between suppressing your access to free speech, and providing you with their private resources as a platform for the exercise of your free speech.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 1467
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 11:11 PM

Oh that's what you meant.. I'm glad I did not jump to conclusions (as I usually doSad). Thanks for clarifying.. I totally agree, in fact I said the same thing under the context of Logos having the right to ban someone from their forum.( it's their forum)

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