Printing versus Copy/Paste Text - Explanation Please

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Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 8:25 AM

Sharon:
To me, it equates with trading in a fabulous Lexus RX330 for a newer (and supposedly more luxurious) model - only to find out, after purchase, that it does not have any sound system in it and that, although Lexus promises me they will eventually get it installed for me, they will not give me an estimate of time less than one year.

While we don't plaster notices of "our software doesn't yet do X" all over our website, we do try to be open about its capabilities. If you feel that the our product is not worth the price you paid because of missing features, customer service will be happy to provide you with a refund.

Sharon:
It has come to my attention that Logos gave a particular quarter of the year as to 'when' for windows.  Why is that information not available to those with a Mac?

While we do have such a page (http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures), you'll also note that the estimates for most items on this page have been revised multiple times (and I have little doubt that they will continue to be revised).

Furthermore, I have observed that no matter how tentative a public estimate is, if we miss it, we end up with angry users. Given the choice between users who are upset because I won't provide information that I don't have and users who are upset because they feel that I lied, I choose the former.

Sharon:
Surely you must have meetings with your employers and surely the topic of 'how long' must be discussed.

Bob (our CEO) periodically visits my office. If he asks how long its going to take to finish, I tell him I don't know. If he provides two potential dates, I always say it will be closer to the later one.

Sharon:
I am not asking you to give me a promise, just the information that you must know, that you must think, that you must be working toward - your best guess.

I understand that this can be frustrating, but I really don't know how long it will take to finish this feature. I can, however, answer the much more interesting question, which is, "how far along are you?"

Very late yesterday afternoon, this came out of the printer on my desk:

There are still a number of problems that need to be addressed and additional features that need to be made available—I don't know how long it will take to address those. I also didn't know when I started work yesterday morning (let alone at the beginning of the week) that I would have a physical piece of paper to show for my work at any point this week. Software development is like that, sometimes.

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 1142
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 1:40 PM

David Mitchell:

Sharon:
To me, it equates with trading in a fabulous Lexus RX330 for a newer (and supposedly more luxurious) model - only to find out, after purchase, that it does not have any sound system in it and that, although Lexus promises me they will eventually get it installed for me, they will not give me an estimate of time less than one year.

While we don't plaster notices of "our software doesn't yet do X" all over our website, we do try to be open about its capabilities. If you feel that the our product is not worth the price you paid because of missing features, customer service will be happy to provide you with a refund.

[

I would think the importance of being able to use the software becomes more and more necessary if someone is a full time Bible teacher.  I'm not but given the pastors and teachers that have purchased Logos and they still are missing very basic features that they REALLY NEED makes your offer of a refund very fair.  I would hope Logos would honor that and think they will because they are a company and have always been one that wants satisfied customers.

Posts 3
Sam Chong | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 22 2010 5:02 PM

Since Day 1, I have been looking for the Print function on Logos 4 for Mac! I was (still am) really disappointed that it is missing as I need to use the feature for my assignments. For this reason, I frequently return to Logos 3. But what surprises me that it is only now that the subject is brought up on the forum as I have been searching for the topic for a long time. Well done to those who have raised the issue and the most pertinent questions. 

God bless.

BTW, this is my first posting.

 

Posts 19273
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 22 2010 5:59 PM

Sam Chong:

Since Day 1, I have been looking for the Print function on Logos 4 for Mac! I was (still am) really disappointed that it is missing as I need to use the feature for my assignments. For this reason, I frequently return to Logos 3. But what surprises me that it is only now that the subject is brought up on the forum as I have been searching for the topic for a long time. Well done to those who have raised the issue and the most pertinent questions. 

God bless.

BTW, this is my first posting.

Welcome to the forums, Sam. This issue has been complained about since Day 1. And yes, Logos knows we users were upset by their decision to defer the printing feature to a later version, not have it in Logos 4 from the beginning. They mistakenly thought it was a feature that not many people were using anymore in this day and age. But it has been finished for the Windows version as of 4.1 and it's awesome, so you will be very happy when they finish porting it over to the Mac, the work for which is underway now.

Searching for things on the forums is hit or miss. The built-in search function on the forum software is not very good. Google does a much better job. See http://wiki.logos.com/Using_the_Forum#Searching_the_forum_using_Google

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 23 2010 1:05 PM

Sharon:

Surely you must have meetings with your employers and surely the topic of 'how long' must be discussed.  I am not asking you to give me a promise, just the information that you must know, that you must think, that you must be working toward - your best guess.

Sharon,

I'm not a dev but I'd bet that they shy away from even providing this level of "guesses" because of their past experience getting nailed to the wall for being wrong...

 

that's just my guess :)

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 19273
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 23 2010 1:13 PM

Robert Pavich:

Sharon:

Surely you must have meetings with your employers and surely the topic of 'how long' must be discussed.  I am not asking you to give me a promise, just the information that you must know, that you must think, that you must be working toward - your best guess.

I'm not a dev but I'd bet that they shy away from even providing this level of "guesses" because of their past experience getting nailed to the wall for being wrong...

I was a software developer for 11 years. It's a high-pressure job. It was hard enough coming up with estimates of when we'd finish a certain task for our managers (when you're doing something you've never done before, you have very little idea how long it's going to take; you have to come up with brand new solutions and all kinds of unforseen problems can come up). Having them hold us to our estimates was hard too. Pulling all-nighters wasn't uncommon when trying to meet goals we'd set weeks before when we were in the dark. I'm trying to imagine how much worse the pressure would have been if we had to tell the paying public how long we thought something we were working on was going to take -- it's inconceivable that we ever would have given out those sorts of guesses to the public. Logos is wise to keep certain things private to protect their employees' health and morale and keep them from burning out.

Posts 3
Sam Chong | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 23 2010 11:14 PM

Thanks, Rosie.

Sam

 

Posts 1142
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 24 2010 12:40 PM

Hi all,

If anything, I have to give Sharon credit for stating her position clearly and not backing down.  She continues to ask one question-when?  And it is probably because her work is dependent on the function she needs to use in Logos software.  I don't think how hard dev's work, although true, is a suitable answer for her question.  I think because she was offered a refund by David and if she is willing to accept it, then Logos should honor it.  If anything she sounds like a long time Logos user and good customer and so deserving of support and quality treatment. 

Posts 698
LogosEmployee

Joan Korte:
She continues to ask one question-when?  And it is probably because her work is dependent on the function she needs to use in Logos software.  I don't think how hard dev's work, although true, is a suitable answer for her question.

Just so everyone is clear: David's point (and, I suspect, Rosie's) is that the question is essentially unanswerable, at least in the way it is asked. We're not being obstinate; we're being honest.

Director of Engineering for Enterprise and Operations

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 24 2010 1:40 PM

Cameron Watters:
Just so everyone is clear: David's point (and, I suspect, Rosie's) is that the question is essentially unanswerable, at least in the way it is asked. We're not being obstinate; we're being honest.

Cameron,

I think that came through clearly....much appreciated. I'm not a software dev, but I work in an industry with humgeous deadlines sometimes...I help design and build aircraft....and when things are hot...they are HOT! No slowing down...

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 1142
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 24 2010 2:30 PM

Hi Robert and Cameron,

To me, you see this differently than I do and perhaps, Sharon (out there) and it is so simple again, from my view point as a user.  Logos either needs to deliver a service (that has been paid for), tell when it might be delivered or refund money.   Your comments are one-sided and so are mine.   Big Smile  Hey, we ladies who are extremely under-represented on the forums "gotta stick together". 

Posts 19273
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 24 2010 2:42 PM

Joan Korte:

If anything, I have to give Sharon credit for stating her position clearly and not backing down.  She continues to ask one question-when?  And it is probably because her work is dependent on the function she needs to use in Logos software.

 

I don't think how clearly Sharon is stating her question, or how persistent she has been in asking it, has anything to do with her not getting a definitive answer she can live with. The question of "when?" is not answerable any more clearly than has been done for her already.

Joan Korte:
I don't think how hard dev's work, although true, is a suitable answer for her question.

My point was not how hard devs work but that they have no idea how long it's going to take to do something they've never done before. So giving an estimate for when something is going to be finished is next to impossible. It is virtually always going to be wrong. As a developer, you just keep plugging away at it and get it done as soon as you can. Having people ask questions about when it's going to be done is more likely to slow down your progress. Of course Marketing likes to know when it's going to be done so they can plan their roll-out and all of that. But they just have to get used to the fact that things slip internally from estimated finish dates. It happens all the time in the industry. Customers, however, are less understanding than other departments within the same company. They tend to get angry and stop trusting the company if the company gives them an estimated date which the developers have no idea whether they'll be able to hit or not. Some companies choose not to give a random date, as it doesn't help anyone. Others usually tend to give target dates and miss them all the time and get slammed in the press for slipping. Which is better? I dunno. Either way it seems customers are not satisfied.

Note that it's easier to give an estimate for producing resources because they done that over and over and there's a basic formula based on how many pages and how complex the text is (how many cross references per page and such), subject to some possible uncontrollable circumstances such as the publisher being a pain about the terms of the contract.

But developing features is not so cut-and-dried. It is exploring into new territory every time. Lewis & Clark had no idea who long it would take them to get to where they were going. They just kept going until they got there.

[EDIT]

Joan Korte:
Logos either needs to deliver a service (that has been paid for), tell when it might be delivered or refund money. 

They've already said they can't do #1 or #2. Sharon has been offered a refund. It's up to her if she wants to take it. You continuing to come to her defense and insist on Logos coming forth with #2 which they cannot do is not helping Sharon any, even though you mean well by joining her in solidarity.

Joan Korte:
Hey, we ladies who are extremely under-represented on the forums "gotta stick together". 

I'm a lady too, but I've gotta say the guys are right this time. It isn't a gender thing. It's that I've had experience in software development so I know where Logos is coming from on this.

[/EDIT]

Posts 1142
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 24 2010 2:58 PM

Rosie,

I am not Sharon but somehow I "found" my way to this thread.  Your statements are brilliant and full of information, Rosie, but if I were Sharon and I am not, I would be taking up the offer for the refund.  The only one who has supported her in any way is me.  And, if you knew me, you would know why.  Eventually, this devolves to a business decision.

Posts 19273
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 24 2010 4:38 PM

Joan Korte:

Your statements are brilliant and full of information, Rosie, but if I were Sharon and I am not, I would be taking up the offer for the refund.

I see no contradiction between those two statements warranting a "but" between them. I can give good answers and her best option could still be to ask for a refund. I wasn't trying to convince her or anyone else otherwise. I'm sorry if you felt that wasn't giving good support, but anything else would have been lying to her. More and more people showing solidarity with her against Logos would just have ended up with the same result in the end, so I didn't see any point in it, though perhaps it would have made you feel better, being the lone voice supporting her. And for that I offer you my apologies. Perhaps I should have stayed out of it entirely. You still would have been the only one supporting her, though. But maybe it wouldn't have felt like there were quite so many people ganging up on you. Smile

Posts 5318
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 24 2010 8:10 PM

Sharon:

David,

It was not customer service, it was tech support, which told me that.

To me, it equates with trading in a fabulous Lexus RX330 for a newer (and supposedly more luxurious) model - only to find out, after purchase, that it does not have any sound system in it and that, although Lexus promises me they will eventually get it installed for me, they will not give me an estimate of time less than one year. 

It has come to my attention that Logos gave a particular quarter of the year as to 'when' for windows.  Why is that information not available to those with a Mac?

Surely you must have meetings with your employers and surely the topic of 'how long' must be discussed.  I am not asking you to give me a promise, just the information that you must know, that you must think, that you must be working toward - your best guess.

Sincerely,

Sharon

 

Logos wanted to make sure they got their product out in October. As one using many of the alpha and all the betas I can say they have come very far and while a truly equitable version would be best... By releasing a fairly functional version they likely have got numerous people reporting bugs that might have taken a long time to track down. I do not know when we will have app parity but from what I have read things are moving much faster on the mac side than the windows side. You might receive a guess but i would think they are very gun-shy on that unless it;s only a week or so off. Now I want the sound system and dual climate controls but I am happy to have the AM radio and heating a/c. While i understand your point, I'd rather have a car that needed work than no car at all.

-Dan 

Posts 1142
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 26 2010 12:20 PM

Rosie Perera:

Joan Korte:

Your statements are brilliant and full of information, Rosie, but if I were Sharon and I am not, I would be taking up the offer for the refund.

 

I see no contradiction between those two statements warranting a "but" between them. I can give good answers and her best option could still be to ask for a refund. I wasn't trying to convince her or anyone else otherwise. I'm sorry if you felt that wasn't giving good support, but anything else would have been lying to her. More and more people showing solidarity with her against Logos would just have ended up with the same result in the end, so I didn't see any point in it, though perhaps it would have made you feel better, being the lone voice supporting her. And for that I offer you my apologies. Perhaps I should have stayed out of it entirely. You still would have been the only one supporting her, though. But maybe it wouldn't have felt like there were quite so many people ganging up on you. Smile

The "but" was serving as a different kind of coordinating conjunction than an "and" serves and it stil makes sense to me.  So, if I could edit the "but" out and just put a semicolon, perhaps, that would work better.   The point I was making is in the last sentence of that post; it is all about business.  And I have not felt as if "there were quite so many people ganging up on" me. I am not the focal point in this thread.  If one were to study my posts for the past eight years in the Logos newsgroups, one could conclude I jump in threads to help out people in any way I can if I share their viewpoint.  Sometimes I feel as you stated, "perhaps I should have stayed out of it entirely."  I think I am done with this thread and this post was just to clarify a few words and ideas, Rosie.

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